Do I have to pay a diagnostic fee if the problem is not diagnosed?

[shaneirish]

My 2010 SHO have been in a dealerships shop for 4 days.  I have a powertrain warranty.  They can hear the noise coming from my front right wheel area but so far are unable to locate the source, they used the diagnostic stethoscope with no results.  They already charged me almost $300 for a suspension part that was not the problem and I negotiated that amount back in service credit.  Am I obligated to pay a diagnosis fee if the issue is never diagnosed?  They said they have contacted Ford Engineers in Dearborn for help and now I'm waiting to hear back.  I found an older thread from another SHO/Taurus board with 6 pages of the same problem and Ford dealerships inability to find the issue.  I'm about to throw in the towel here and can only imagine what the charges are so far with nothing fixed/diagnosed.   

 

[ZSHO]

I feel for you,hopefully they provided you with a loaner i hope,quite honestly it varies by dealer and the type of warranty you have,but why should you pay for any fees considering the inconvenience you have been through from the start if they cannot fix the issue,personally would stop by and speak with the service manager and try to get an update,sounds to me like a possible faulty strut assembly,best of luck and hopefully she will be running like new in no time.  Z

 

[BiGMaC]

I too feel your pain Shane. I went through a similar problem with a severe vibration between 65 and 75 mph on my '13 F250... It's a real frustrating experience at many dealers when the problem doesn't set a code. Hang in there.

On that truck we drove with SAs, Shop foreman, and two different front end "specialists" from the dealership after rebalancing (road force) and even indexing the wheels twice on each of the replacement sets when they couldn't be balanced.... We requested a test with the same wheels from another truck.... Dealer declined! This saga took place over 8 months.... I bought two sets of tires during this and all three sets had the same problem... Interestingly the wheels were always found to be out of balance after 2-3k miles.... We tried a second dealer without resolution after this.. And both used the Ford engineering hotline.  Finally, the vibration just stopped... So now I have. Truck with 40k, new tires, and something that I believe was faulty in assembly or part manufacture which finally wore in or shifted position. I do not use that dealer anymore. ... Sorry to get off topic... But just wanted you to know you're not alone in this day of computer techs rather than mechanics....

 

[vernonator]

I know your dealer is in contact with the "hotline" but have you reached out to your regional service rep?

 

[shaneirish]

I have the car back and the engineers at Ford, after getting all the diagnostic information, said it's most likely from the front right strut tower area, the techs isolated the noise to that location but said they could not promise that once they take the strut off and replace whatever is the issue that it will resolve the issue.  I only have a power train warranty so I declined to go any further with them and I will have my mechanic check it..  They assured me it is not in the drive line. I was not charged anything and I have a few new drive line and suspension parts as well as a PTU fluid change at no charge.

 

[SHOdded]

Seems things are finally working in your favor.  Hope the fix (as originally suggested by Z) will too!  Notice any difference with the new PTU fluid in there?  Wonder if it's different from factory fill.  What is "LV fluid"?

 

[ZSHO]

Thats some great news to hear and hopefully its a permanent fix,just a couple of things to mention and if you can check if the dust cover by the strut tower inside your engine bay is on the housing ,also do you know if they tried to re-torque that bolt for the strut tower assembly as mentioned a while back,another note personally would change both sides in my opinion, BTW based on the work order glad there was a zero balance and probably would give the service advisor a zero for his typing effort,also check out the struts on Tasca parts for reference.  Z    http://www.tascaparts.com/auto-parts/2010/ford/taurus/sho-trim/3-5l-v6-gas-engine/front-suspension-cat/struts-and-components-scat

 

[Nasty93]

I have the car back and the engineers at Ford, after getting all the diagnostic information, said it's most likely from the front right strut tower area, the techs isolated the noise to that location but said they could not promise that once they take the strut off and replace whatever is the issue that it will resolve the issue.  I only have a power train warranty so I declined to go any further with them and I will have my mechanic check it..  They assured me it is not in the drive line. I was not charged anything and I have a few new drive line and suspension parts as well as a PTU fluid change at no charge.

Sounds like they took care of you pretty well considering the fact that the shop had to pay the tech all his time to diagnose the vehicle and they didnt charge you for some parts and services.
The least you could do is get it fixed with them, they deserve that.

 

[shaneirish]

You don't know the whole story.  They misdiagnosed it last week, put in suspension parts that didn't fix it and told me it was fixed and charged me almost $300.  I was able to resolve that with the service manager with service credit.    The tech didn't diagnose anything and he would have been paid whether my car was there or not. The engineers from Ford advised them as to what they thought the diagnosis might be and gave me some maybe's on what the problem is. I don't work with "might be's" or "maybe's" and I'm done with the replace and see approach and inept tech's that are costing me money....$300 so far that in hindsight I should of only asked for my money back instead of service credit.   

 

[shaneirish]

ZSHO,  yes, they went through and re-torqued everything in the suspension.  I will check out those parts and replace the struts.  Thanks for your advice!

 

[ZSHO]

ZSHO,  yes, they went through and re-torqued everything in the suspension.  I will check out those parts and replace the struts.  Thanks for your advice!

Any good tracks up North,BTW used to have a small cabin by Lake George years ago,best of luck and keep us updated.  Z

 

[ZSHO]

This is the dust cover which i was referencing about,sometimes they fall or pop out and could have dirt buildup and especially water intrusion entering inside,its located on top of the strut tower by the sway bay.  Z

 

[Nasty93]

You don't know the whole story.  They misdiagnosed it last week, put in suspension parts that didn't fix it and told me it was fixed and charged me almost $300.  I was able to resolve that with the service manager with service credit.    The tech didn't diagnose anything and he would have been paid whether my car was there or not. The engineers from Ford advised them as to what they thought the diagnosis might be and gave me some maybe's on what the problem is. I don't work with "might be's" or "maybe's" and I'm done with the replace and see approach and inept tech's that are costing me money....$300 so far that in hindsight I should of only asked for my money back instead of service credit. 

Every issue isnt cut and dry, sometimes you cant diagnose a vehicle without trying something. What they tried unfortauntly didnt work. But they did make it right and give you your money back more or less. The car business is full of maybes and might bes when diagnosing a complicated machine.

And a technician isnt getting paid hourly or salary. they are only paid on what they book out for the day. So either the tech works on your car and dosent get any book time and works for free. Or the service manager pays the tech for his time and he looses out because its a much more complicated issue than most.

People make mistakes, but its how those mistakes are handled that show the integrity of the dealer. It sounds like they are trying to work with you. It seems they are offering the credit due to it not fixing it and spending the time with hotline it get as accurate as a diagnosis as possible. So they arent blowing you off or asking you to pay for something that dosent fix the car i fail to see the issue.

Yes its a pain in the ass taking your car in more than once, We can all agree with that. Yes its frustrating not having your car, we all agree there too. But it sounds like they are very honest with you about whats going on and whats been found, id say you have a good dealer on your hands. At what point are your expectations unrealistic?

And i speak on this as a Ford Service Manager

 

[shaneirish]

I restore vintage tube radios and amps electronically and cosmetically.  My grandfather was a tv and radio repairman and I learned that skill from him.  I have many tools and diagnostic equipment I use to test a radio that someone trusts me to repair, oscilloscopes, mutual conductance tube testers, signal generator and a variac just to name a few.  9 times out of 10 the problem is because the original paper capacitors are bad so I begin by replacing all the capacitors and electrolytic capacitors with their modern equivalents, replacing them should always be done regardless of what is wrong with the radio because a bad one will ruin an expensive transformer and the vaccuum tubes making what would have been a relatively inexpensive repair very costly. They are cheap and easy to replace, an analogy would be like driving with dry rotted tires.  I then test all the resistors and replace any that are not within the original factory specs that's listed on the schematic, usually +/- 10%.  I then test all the vacuum tubes and replace any that are weak  (I don't replace them because I'm guessing they are weak). I check all the wiring and then realign the tuning capacitor.  Plug it into the variac and slowely bring the voltage up and I would estimate that 98% of the time the radio works like it did when it left the factory..there are more steps to restoration but this is the condensed version.  Sometimes the issue requires more advanced use of my diagnostic equipment and the reliance on my years of experience.  When a customer explains to me the symtoms of what's wrong with their radio or amplifier  I have enough experience and skill to know where to start looking.  I don't randomly replace parts in the hopes that it solves the issue.  I would never randomly throw parts in a radio and then tell my customer the radio was fixed when it wasn't, I would be embarrassed to do that.  I would also never tell them that I don't know what the issue is so I'm just going to keep replacing parts until it works.  That's a sign of inexperience and ineptness and it's also terrible business.  I'm a professional and if I cannot fix the radio I wouldn't charge a dime or expect that customer to come back just because I had hours of diagnostic time into the radio.  The dealership did not offer to  refund my money or give me service credit for their misdiagnosis until I asked, they threw up a "test ballon" to see if I would roll over, that's terrible customer service. I only took my vehicle there in hopes that it was a driveline issue and covered under my warranty.  The dealership is more concerned about the bottom line and who is going to get paid and have the production line mentality of getting cars in and out quickly  rather than customer service.  They are inexperienced and inept and it's my money and it will be given to a professional and experienced mechanic.  So tell me again why I should throw my money at a dealership whose inexperience and ineptness failed to diagnose my car in the four days they had it and their next step was going to be to randomly replace parts until the issue was corrected...on my dime.

 

[66 Galaxie]

After the mis-repair was done they gave you a service credit which is more than many dealers would do.

If you truelly feel that the service department at your dealer is inept maybe you should find another dealer.

Just my $0.02

 

[ZSHO]

I have owned a large fleet of cars and trucks my whole lifetime from a variety of auto manufacturers and certainly the SHO is very unique in its own aspect,there are two contrastive elements that i find problematic after owning my car for over two years now 1)the lack of unskilled techs with limited knowledge twards the SHO makes a trip to the dealer that more hesitant, 2)the SHO does not emit,produce codes that easily making any judgement or repair that much harder especially when your vehicle has issues and the tech cannot properly conclude a definitive diagnosis,so when putting the two together you have one decisive dealer visit,just my 2 cent.  Z

 

[shaneirish]

They did not offer a refund or credit until I pressed the issue and asked to talk to the manager. The service manager, in trying to get out of having to refund the misdiagnosis, said "well how do you know the part we replaced wasn't  worn?", i said "show me the part", which he couldn't do. My point is that they told me the problem was corrected when they replaced that part and it wasn't.  They should have said "we replaced a part that was worn but it didn't correct the problem".  I would have been more than happy to pay has thar been the case.  Instead they focus on the clock and rushing repairs instead of doing what's right.

 

[Nasty93]

You do what you want, you ask for advice and other peoples outlook on the situation. But you seem to get annoyed and defensive if the posters opinion does not match yours.

I have worked in the service department of a dealer my entire working life. You were not done wrong in my opinion, but its clear you feel cheated.

at this point nothing they do will be acceptable it seems, so you must move on.

 

[shaneirish]

So you are saying it was ok for the service department to call me and say they found the problem and replaced the right and left stabilizer link pins, bushings and nuts, tell me the noise was gone and charge me almost $300 and it was ok to then pick up my car and hear the noise EXACTLY as it sounded when I dropped it off? It was ok when the service tech rode with me again and verified he still heard the noise? It was ok that I was not offered a refund or credit until I  pushed the issue and that I had to ask to speak to the Service Manager who tried to double talk me in his reluctance to refund me and I had to negotiate a refund?  Yes, I got a service credit but I had to fight for it.  After all that you are saying I was not done wrong?? Think of it like this, your dishwasher is broken, a repairman comes and replaces a $300 part, tells you it's fixed and leaves.  You start your dishwasher and nothing is different, it's still broken.  He comes back(does not offer a refund), and after 3 days of troubleshooting and consultation with Maytag Engineers, they can only guess at what the problem might be and he tells you he will just replace parts until it's fixed.  He is the almighty Maytag certified Service Tech so I should let him keep trying to fix it. Is that the route you would take?  Well in my world when I experience incompetence and someones inability to solve an issue I move on and find someone who can.

The noise was actually caused by a bad strut component that my mechanic diagnosed and repaired in less than a day without having to consult Ford Engineers. He has a shop and a client base of customers who trust him.  He doesn't have the production line mentality that a Dealerships service department has of getting cars in and out quickly, trading thoroughness for haste in an effort to get as many cars in and out to maximize profit.  That level of expertise only comes from years of experience and not because he took a certified mechanic class.

 

[Nasty93]

You work in a different industry. You are looking for black and white and that does not exist with cars. Look at all the posts on the forums with people that are quite educated on the SHO and have issues. Not everything is cut and dry and you fail to understand that. You don't work in the industry so its not fair to expect you to get it.

you have your opinion and you're welcome to it. I personally disagree with you and think you're making a WAY bigger deal of it than it deserves.

Do i think you're wrong? yes i do. But it shouldn't effect your life as it certainly does not effect mine.