3 bar, tstat guys-- How's your driveability?

[ajpturbo]

I run a 3 bar simply because LME's most aggressive tune requires it.  Prior to that I was running their most aggressive 2 bar tune.  There is an upgrade in performance with the 3 bar tune but I don't think it is specifically due to the 3 bar sensor.  Yes, the 3 bar tune improves idle quality and overall smoothness but, again, I am not saying the reason is due specifically the sensor.  More likely, in my opinion, Dan came up with a better balance of timing, boost and A/F ratio.  I will certainly defer to those who have spoken with him on the subject, however.

I'm basically done with this for this thread but I've already explained pretty thoroughly the reasons why the 3 bar sensor itself CANNOT make the car idle better or run smooter. Those that don't tune maybe aren't capable of understanding resolution. You are in a way asking the ECU to determine a reading from the MAP sensor with less detail. The reason you don't experience worse drivability with a 3 bar is the amount of resolution that is lost is not near enough for the problem to manifest itself as a detectable or depreciable difference to the user.

But there are many other ways in the tune to improve drivability and  "smoothness"

When a sensor is between 2 points the ECU has to "interpolate". With a 2 Bar sensor the distance between the 2 points is smaller and there are more defined points  on the scale. The scale for a 2 bar being 0 volts is 0 bar and 5 volts being 2 bar or max scale. With a 3 bar sensor the ECU has to interpolate more because the space between the points is greater, this is a loss of resolution.

 

[SHOdded]

Those that don't tune maybe aren't capable of understanding resolution.

Here's the thing, if you "illustrate" what you are saying, it will be a lot easier to understand.  How about a comparative table that shows you an example?  A "picture" is worth a 1,000 words, even today.

I would agree with your premise if the same number of data points are being provided by both the 2 bar & 3 bar sensors.  I don't know that for a fact, but it is a reasonable assumption.  I assume a test run with a hooked up speedy OBD monitor can confirm empirically, the tuners probably know already.

 

[ZSHO]

The difference I would think is the 160 the fans will stay on constantly for often while the 170 would cycle on and off more like the stock 180 stat

Wait so who's correct? you or the guy above?

You wanted to know who's right,basically our answers are the same but phrased differently.

How are those answers the same? One said the fans come on less with a 160 and one said the fans stay on constantly.

With a 160 the fans would come on less if the scalars aren't changed in the tune. Desired coolant temp is 212 in the stock calibration but fans will come on more if the coolant temp setting is lowered closer to 160 with the 160 stat.

A lot of hardware changes with late model cars also require a calibration change to take full advantage...You can get away with intakes on these cars because they used speed density tuning logic(MAP based). If these were mass air flow tuned then I wouldn't throw an intake on without a tune for example

You really like to push buttons dont you!!! stay on constantly rather than cycle on or off,and my answer was it implements less usage from going on and off(meaning they stay on longer).

 

[ajpturbo]

I thought u were pushing my buttons lol

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I am really happy with the current tune in every aspect,the only thing i would change in perspective is the Reische 170stat to the LME 160stat which i believe is better for performance and provides better longevity twards the fans.

what's the difference between the 160 and 170? It's only 10 degrees. I'm pretty sure the stock one is 190 degrees.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are basically right, stock is 178°. The giant issue with the stock unit is that it allows for too much temp travel, which results in the inability to dump heat soaking. Our 160° unit allows for better efficiency and repeatability when driving. We found out the hard way, that 170° units are too close to stock and actually keep your fans running in a constant fashion, robbing power.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I am really happy with the current tune in every aspect,the only thing i would change in perspective is the Reische 170stat to the LME 160stat which i believe is better for performance and provides better longevity twards the fans.

what's the difference between the 160 and 170? It's only 10 degrees. I'm pretty sure the stock one is 190 degrees.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The stock one is a 180 degree. The coolant temps are in the 190's running it however.

The stock unit actually allows for far mor travel than just 10° it is almost 3 times than that.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

The difference I would think is the 160 the fans will stay on constantly for often while the 170 would cycle on and off more like the stock 180 stat

That is actually backwards.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I run a 3 bar simply because LME's most aggressive tune requires it.  Prior to that I was running their most aggressive 2 bar tune.  There is an upgrade in performance with the 3 bar tune but I don't think it is specifically due to the 3 bar sensor.  Yes, the 3 bar tune improves idle quality and overall smoothness but, again, I am not saying the reason is due specifically the sensor.  More likely, in my opinion, Dan came up with a better balance of timing, boost and A/F ratio.  I will certainly defer to those who have spoken with him on the subject, however.

Correct the sensor does not add power, it allows us to tune more aggressively, which in turn gives you greater power gains.

 

[ajpturbo]

I am really happy with the current tune in every aspect,the only thing i would change in perspective is the Reische 170stat to the LME 160stat which i believe is better for performance and provides better longevity twards the fans.

what's the difference between the 160 and 170? It's only 10 degrees. I'm pretty sure the stock one is 190 degrees.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are basically right, stock is 188°. The giant issue with the stock unit is that it allows for too much temp travel, which results in the inability to dump heat soaking. Our 160° unit allows for better efficiency and repeatability when driving. We found out the hard way, that 170° units are too close to stock and actually keep your fans running in a constant fashion, robbing power.

Stock is 190. Not that it's a huge difference just saying....That's what's stamped on the OEM motorcraft part. If your fans are running in a constant fasion then your fan setting is too close to the opening temp of the stat. It's normally recommended for your fans to be set to come on 10-15 degrees above your T-stat opening point. That way if the radiator alone can't dissipate the heat then the fans will be called upon. If you set the fan setting too close or worse yet under the T-stat rating then the fans will never shut off

 

[ZSHO]

I am really happy with the current tune in every aspect,the only thing i would change in perspective is the Reische 170stat to the LME 160stat which i believe is better for performance and provides better longevity twards the fans.

what's the difference between the 160 and 170? It's only 10 degrees. I'm pretty sure the stock one is 190 degrees.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are basically right, stock is 188°. The giant issue with the stock unit is that it allows for too much temp travel, which results in the inability to dump heat soaking. Our 160° unit allows for better efficiency and repeatability when driving. We found out the hard way, that 170° units are too close to stock and actually keep your fans running in a constant fashion, robbing power.

Stock is 190. Not that it's a huge difference just saying....That's what's stamped on the OEM motorcraft part. If your fans are running in a constant fasion then your fan setting is too close to the opening temp of the stat. It's normally recommended for your fans to be set to come on 10-15 degrees above your T-stat opening point. That way if the radiator alone can't dissipate the heat then the fans will be called upon. If you set the fan setting too close or worse yet under the T-stat rating then the fans will never shut off

I am quite surprised based on your knowledge with tunes and exactly how a tune is written,that you still continue to use the stock plugs and thermostat,figured you must know better than that!!! AJPTURBO!!

 

[ajpturbo]

I am really happy with the current tune in every aspect,the only thing i would change in perspective is the Reische 170stat to the LME 160stat which i believe is better for performance and provides better longevity twards the fans.

what's the difference between the 160 and 170? It's only 10 degrees. I'm pretty sure the stock one is 190 degrees.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are basically right, stock is 188°. The giant issue with the stock unit is that it allows for too much temp travel, which results in the inability to dump heat soaking. Our 160° unit allows for better efficiency and repeatability when driving. We found out the hard way, that 170° units are too close to stock and actually keep your fans running in a constant fashion, robbing power.

Stock is 190. Not that it's a huge difference just saying....That's what's stamped on the OEM motorcraft part. If your fans are running in a constant fasion then your fan setting is too close to the opening temp of the stat. It's normally recommended for your fans to be set to come on 10-15 degrees above your T-stat opening point. That way if the radiator alone can't dissipate the heat then the fans will be called upon. If you set the fan setting too close or worse yet under the T-stat rating then the fans will never shut off

I am quite surprised based on your knowledge with tunes and exactly how a tune is written,that you still continue to use the stock plugs and thermostat,figured you must know better than that!!!

Well I dunno.  I have a PP so cooling doesn't seem to be a problem so far. I don't road race it. When I log I've done pulls up to about 145 and the coolant starts to get hot at about 215 then goes down immediately when I lift. That is a very normal operating temp. If I was doing longer pulls then I think I would need an upgrade. A cooler T-stat for the purposes of starting the coolant flow sooner is really just a band aid for a cooling system that is inadequate. When people are putting in cooler stats it's not so they can operate at 165 its so they can delay the time in the pull that the coolant gets hot, ie. maybe they are at 200 by the end of the pull instead of 225 degrees. At least that's how I understand.

I plan on pulling the plugs soon and see how they look but I've ran 22 psi and it doesn't miss or sputter. I probably will go one step cooler because I'm running close to 20 psi. But I'm not in high boost a whole lot, a quick blast here and there. If you hardly ever see higher than normal boost then running too cold of a plug may prevent you from ever getting the tip of the plug hot enough. The proper temp of the plug tip should be between 932 and 1472 F. Can you tell me what the tip temp is with the stock plugs?....Neither can I

But yeah I may need a cooler plug but I don't feel it's urgent...I only have 4k on the car now

 

[markssho]

Lots of good info above, but, I'll defer to Livernois as i expect them to be the experts with their tune and recommendation. As evidenced by so many of you that are tuned with no issues, for years now, i pulled the trigger last fall.
3 bar, 4x, with stock thermostat here. I'm happy. In my opinion, the car should have been tuned this way from the factory. The engine response, shifting, etc. is much improved, very noticeable over stock.
I have noticed some odd moments with boost or shifting after a long time in DC traffic, which is a rarity for me (once since tuned).

 

[ajpturbo]

Yes I would trust Livernois as well as they are very solid just not the salesman that posts here lol

 

[TSS]

If you are referring to Jaimie, I have worked with him, met him, and he has personally responded to my questions and has not tried to sell me things I haven't asked for. He is solid.

 

[ZSHO]

In my honest point of view,Jaimie and the guys over at LME always did the right thing,only one time they recommended upgrading to a 160 stat for better cooling efficiency.