Compare and contrast: Eblends and Alchohol/Methanol Injection

[lamrith]

I want to say 1st off I am not looking for a bash fest or pissing contest of which is "better".  If I wanted that I would have posted on one of the FB groups and opcorn:

Based on the posts I have seen here they are both very viable power adding options for our favorite little engine that could.  Also based on the posts here this is a really good community that respects each other and shares what they know about their preference rather than bashing others choices.
:clap2:

There are of course threads out there in each respective sub-forum about the virtues of that setup, but I thought it would be a good idea to have a single thread in a general sub-forum directly comparing the two?  What I would like to see is some honest old school compare and contrast of the two options with pro's and cons of each so newer members like myself can wade thru and head to head comparison make an educated decision on which is best for their situation. 

I will start of with the very little bit that I have picked up, as well as some questions.  If I have anything incorrect let me know and I will edit my post as well as adding anything as we go.

EBLENDS (E20/E30)

• PROS:
  • Well established power gains.
  • Only have to deal with when filling up the tank.
  • Cannot run out mid run/pull.
  • Cheaper initial investment if E85 in your area. No special hardware to change or install on vehicle.
• CONS:
  • Not available everywhere.
    • May have to store at home which means buy drum(s) and pump for home then buy in bulk and haul/ship home. Drums $20-50, pumps $50-400
    • Can mean having to bring a gas can of E85 with you to fill up tank.
  • More complex fuel fillups
    • %E can vary substantially by station, age and time of year.  Anywhere from E51to E85.
    • Have to calculate how much to add based on actual % Ethanol in E85 as well as E10 at pump and how much and what blend of fuel already in tank.
    • Not family friendly for fillups if family members need to fill tank up when you are not there to do calculations/adding E85.
  • Requires tune.
  • Incorrect Blend % calculation or low % from pump vs tune can damage motor.
  • Warranty implications, no visible modification to car. (Dealer may see there was a tune done, but no physical mods to car)
• RECOMMENDED READING:
• QUESTIONS:
  • Any actual # vs stock E10 tunes?
  • Can vehicle operate safely on an E10tune for short time (to/from gas station) with E30 in the tank, or if fill partial tank (E20, E15) when switching back to E10?

ALCOHOL/METHANOL INJECTION

• PROS:
  • Well established power gains.
  • Cools IAT temps
  • Cleans backside of intake valves.
  • Less expensive variable cost due to price of Meth and it is not spraying 100% of time.
  • Can load E10 tune and turn off meth system anytime you wish
  • Meth consumables available pretty much everywhere (std autoparts stores) depending on format chosen
  • Family friendly for fillups if family members need to fill tank up when you are not there.  Just the usual:"Please use premium honey." :x:
• CONS:
  • Typically higher initial cost. Meth injections kits can be expensive, most start around $350 and climb from there.
  • Risk of running out of Meth or having a pump failure during a run/pull which can damage motor.
  • Requires tune.
  • Not all tuners will tune for it.
  • Warranty implications, obvious physical vehicle modification if need to take car to dealer for service.
• RECOMMENDED READING:
  • BPD1151's How To
  • StealBlueSho's Lessons learned.
• QUESTIONS:
  • Any actual # vs stock E10 tunes?
  • Risks/dangers of having a meth kit spray without a tune for it?

I am sure I missed some things, please you pro's more in the know, chime in and add to this so we can put together a nice comparison that can be pinned/stickied to help new Ecobeast owners.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Soooooo... most of this can be found via the search button. 

E10 is in almost every pump already... I am assuming you meant E20? And if so, there are LOTs of the threads with dynos from stock to E20... look up DerfDog and F8tlsho posts...

When going from station to station you can run whatever Eblend you want... just baby it like an old man until you can fill it up with your desired gas...

Again... lots of posts with stock vs meth sprays... lots of variables so you need to read the details behind the dyno.. meth/water mix... tuner... mods etc... search is your friend...

You can run meth without a tune... it will actually slow you down... I don't know anyone who does run meth without a tune... good luck there...

Do some searching... there are answers to almost everything you mentioned... EcoBrickBob, EcoPowerParts, BPD, and several others have posted answers to these questions in much more detail...

If you are interested in spraying meth you should talk to Unleashed and/or Livernois as they will give you definitive answers.

 

[lamrith]

I should clarify, I am not looking for answers for myself and what I should install or use.

Yes I am referring to E20/30 blends.  Maybe I am wrong but I did not consider E10 a blend because (at least out here) it is the only fuel available at the pump, I have not seen fuel not marked E10 in years out here in WA.  So it is not really a choice, you are running E10 whether you want to or not, and whether you run Meth or not.

I totally agree that there is lots of information on the individual power adders on this site.  I by no means want to suggest that people NOT do thorough search and research on this and other sites.  The raw data for each format can be found with the search button, I have searched quite a bit and that is where I came up with the limited information I posted originally after being here a few months reading as much as I can.  The sheer volume of info spread over so may threads and single posts buried in so many threads makes it hard to come up with a solid view on the pros/cons of each and how to decide which might be a better fit for a person.

What I am hoping to do with this thread is have an initial thread that is stickied that people can find and get an idea if which one would best fit their situation and desired goals.  I have not seen any thread that directly addresses the two against each other, or did I miss a thread someplace?  Something that will give them a direction to focus on for their deep dive into research on a particular format.  Heck a good addition to this thread would be links to some of the individual threads that have better detail on the given choices.

For in depth info on Meth injection be sure to check out Thread 1, Thread 500, thread 2017.

 

[SHOdded]

It is a good thread.  Please continue!  Always need a consolidation thread that is a good reference to start from.

 

[lamrith]

Bump for some added pro/cons. 

I know you guys have more to share for compare and contrast info, no way I got all the pro/con's.

 

[f8tlSHO]

Pro's for my e30 experience...
I can run lower boost than my regular 93 tune and still make more power. I drove my car to the dyno with 15psi ajp e20 tune. Dynoed it, then switched to my 14psi tune on the dyno. Car made about the same peak power on my 14 psi newly loaded tune. Also had a better curve, so boost isn't everything. I personally like the timing better than the extra boost. I am now running e30 which I am really happy with. 14psi e30 all year round, we have cold winters here in pa also. I have a station with e85 and 93 in the same pump, so it is very convenient. I fill up when the light comes on, 5.25 gallons of e85 to 9.75 gallons of 93. I have not checked e content since winter though, it was 70% in winter. But I have not seen any fuel shortages yet this summer. This is so far my favorite tune, I had unleashed, now ajp. I have info posted in the dyno numbers section if anyone wanted to see that.


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[bamsho]

I'm very happy with my Alky Controls meth kit from Livernois.  As some know me, it took my 2 years before I pulled the trigger and bought the meth kit, in that time I had my conversations with Mike(BPD) about it. 

I can't speak for the Snow system or other meth injections kits, but the Alky controls comes with a red/green led light that turns red to prime and green to fire.  If that like doesn't come on, then you know your not spraying and back of the throttle.  Also Alky uses the factory washer tank and uses the low washer fluid sensor, and if you get that low the warning will come up and the dash. 

Figure on a full weekend to install, that's not rushing and talking your time.  Mine wasn't a DD so I took longer than needed.

Also there is a life cycle or duty cycle with the pumps.  Alky can rebuild there's for half the price of a new one.  Mike told me to buy a spare pump, so when this one finally quits, I just swap it out and send the old one to Alky to rebuild and they will send it back. 

The other issues is getting methanol.  I got lucky that the local parts store is a VP dealer and can get M1 for me, so that is something to look into.

As for tuning, I'm sure AJP, Torrie will tune for what every meth setup you go with, Livernois will only tune for Alky Controls and use of M1.

Each has there pro's and con's, esp now with the new bigger DI pumps coming to market.  Sounds like if you want to go full E85, is going to cost you $$$$, no matter the route you go.

I put my system on this past Feb and just went thru my first 5 gallons of M1, and that is 7 track days included, but in that same note, my car isn't a DD either.

Good luck in what you choice, either way you go you will be thrilled.