E-85 injection vs meth injection

[FoMoCoSHO]

So I've been thinking about this as E-85 is easily available for me.

Apparently others are doing it as well...

http://www.ctsvowners.com/forum/71-cooling/17946-ethanol-vs-methanol-injection.html

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f303/ethanol-injection-162247/

I'm not concerned with the octane differences of the two as I will still be mixing 15% in the DI system. (E-85 has crazy high effective octane when directly injected)

From my reading, it looks like it would be marginally safer to handle and actually be better for fuel volume.

I'd love to hear your thoughts or experiences on the topic.

 

[4DRHTRD]

The reason I didn't do a single injector in the TB is I was scared for the back cylinders to go lean and detonate.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

The reason I didn't do a single injector in the TB is I was scared for the back cylinders to go lean and detonate.

Isn't meth injected right before the TB?

I'm interested in running a meth kit substituting E-85

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

The reason I didn't do a single injector in the TB is I was scared for the back cylinders to go lean and detonate.

Wouldn't the extra fuel volume when compared to meth make corn a better option?

Is this a problem with meth injection as well?

 

[4DRHTRD]

I've never done meth, I personally don't like it.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

I'm out of fuel so I've gotta figure something out so I can get those pretty downpipes and cutout on the car.

This seems like the path of least resistance and expense.

 

[IHeartGroceries]

Substituting methanol in a meth injection system with E85, as a matter of convenience, correct?
What impact might running gasoline have on that system?
Is the tank vented? And in the engine bay? Gasoline constantly vaporizes. At least alcohol has a much higher flash point.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

Substituting methanol in a meth injection system with E85, as a matter of convenience, correct?
What impact might running gasoline have on that system?
Is the tank vented? And in the engine bay? Gasoline constantly vaporizes. At least alcohol has a much higher flash point.

Convenience, yes.
Fuel volume, yes.
Less corrosive and allegedly easier to handle, yes.

Vaporization and flashpoint need some research attention, thanks!

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flash-point-fuels-d_937.html

 

[IHeartGroceries]

I think this platform is essentially leading up to the same eventual developments made on the Mazda DISI MZR.

It was basically tapping out upgraded OE fuel pumps, grappling with the shortcomings of WMI and with a dash of Ethanol blending and tuning mashed into those two supplement fuel solutions.

This led to the eventual development of a 5th port injector solution. Piggybacking off of the OE fuel tank and upgrading the LPFP to boost pressure on the supply line, which is what is tapped into.

Obvious benefits are, no secondary tanks, no mixing, no running low on fuel, less liklihood of mechanical failure and you ditch the nozzle and replace it with a legitimate injector. Logic and control in a secondary, stand alone fuel controller. And then you need your ECU tuning solution...

This shouldn't be impossible. Just expensive and the head ache of being the first.

Or.didn't 4DR.dapple in it a bit?

 

[SHOdded]

If you wanted to go that route (aux port injection/upgraded fuel lines etc), yes, 4DR has "been there, done that".

 

[IHeartGroceries]

I thought I'd read some posts a while back regarding his experimentations. But guess I'm slightly confused on how one member here has been successful building an 800 horsepower beast utilizing OE. Whereas 4DR maxed out well before that and had to resort to PI.

So, which is it?

As far as I'm concerned, without some significant support, with upgraded components like injectors and pumps, which would be very expensive anyway, expanding to PI is a cheaper solution that should still provide quite a bit of fueling headroom.

The Mazda community traveled the same path. And the eventual solution was PI, which I'm fairly certain was the source of research for 4DR, as he brought alot of his hypothetics to some of the "experts" on MSF.

Of course, depending on your eventual goals, a WMI system may provide what you need. If you see something a little more lofty in your future, you'll wish you'd just skipped over and dappled directly into a more resolute solution.

I'm not privy to 4DRs explorations though. What limitations did he run into?

 

[SHOdded]

The limits 4DR hit were with the transmission more than the engine (with stock internals).  You can read his Flex build here:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,334

And his summarized view of fueling upgrade here:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,462

 

[wasinger3000]

What is the comparison on 98% ethanol vs 100% methanol? I have access to either one. Any major difference in the way they act?

 

[SHOdded]

The one difference that immediately stands out is the cooling property of methanol over ethanol.  To quote,
The main distinction between methanol and ethanol is that methanol has a lower caloric weight (or the amount of energy available to burn when combusted), higher specific heat (takes more heat to burn the mixture) and a high heat of vaporization (when vaporized can cool down intake air temps dramatically). Ethanol is generally the same characteristics and properties as methanol, but does not cool down the intake charge as well and as mentioned above costs substantially more then methanol.

 

[bpd1151]

I'm slightly confused on how one member here has been successful building an 800 horsepower beast utilizing OE.

Whereas 4DR maxed out well before that and had to resort to PI.

1st, there's no need to supplement, or replace/upgrade the LPFP. On my various dyno runs and resulting tune files (DD 400awhp, Stage 1 Track 525awhp, Stage 2 track 617awhp) there was only a scant 1psi drop on the LPFP side across the board.

So that in and of itself, assures me, that the OEM LPFP is perfectly capable.

It was explained to me, that running a completely separate set of injectors, essentially taxes the crap out of the OEM LPFP, and likely why someone was experiencing repeated shutdown of the TB, etc. and required the additional pumps, controls, etc.

I've said it time and time again, it's not necessary to run a separate set of injectors.

Factor in the use of E85 (which I'm not a well known fan of, for a myriad of reasons) it takes a LOT more E, to burn the equivalent of the 93 Pump Gas (or even the 109 Race Gas for the higher tune files).

Moving along, we did see drops on the HPFP side. Which, on it's floor (or lowest end) ranged in the 900-1000psi range(s) respectively. Previous info posted here is accurate in that the desired target range is 2000-2200psi range(s) ideally.

This is where the 100% Methanol factors in.

It was suggested I ramp up to a dual nozzle meth setup in order to reacquire the targeted HPFP range(s).

I did so, and well...... you the see the results.

That's how I am able to "pull off" what I have by completely retaining EVERY ASPECT of the OEM Fueling System.

We all have similar goals in mind as far as desiring to achieve the most power, etc. out of our respective setups.

How we achieve those goals though, will obviously be different.

Some of those differences I have learned over the years, is that 93 Pump Gas is not readily available in all areas of the Country. I'm glad that it is in my area.

It goes w/o saying that others may have to embrace other alternatives/solutions that wouldn't necessarily be in line with my levels of acceptance.

Doesn't mean one is wrong, or one is right. It's just a different means to a different end.

We should all be thankful for all of those who've been involved over the years for their poise, sense of direction, willingness to test, and push the Ecoboost platform in the manner(s) that they have..... EVERYONE.

Ultimately, the results achieved on my SHO speak for themselves.

 

[BiGMaC]

The one difference that immediately stands out is the cooling property of methanol over ethanol.  To quote,
The main distinction between methanol and ethanol is that methanol has a lower caloric weight (or the amount of energy available to burn when combusted), higher specific heat (takes more heat to burn the mixture) and a high heat of vaporization (when vaporized can cool down intake air temps dramatically). Ethanol is generally the same characteristics and properties as methanol, but does not cool down the intake charge as well and as mentioned above costs substantially more then methanol.

I agree totally... As I study in prep for likely getting Meth injection it seems that it is the cooling which makes meth what it is for our cars, especially with our inadequate intercooler...  Meth injection into the IC to TB pipe can lower intake air temps 50 degrees easily at the throttle body... Each one of those degrees is about equivalent to 1 WHP... so bolt on 50WHP and keep your intake valves and TB clean at the same time.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

The one difference that immediately stands out is the cooling property of methanol over ethanol.  To quote,
The main distinction between methanol and ethanol is that methanol has a lower caloric weight (or the amount of energy available to burn when combusted), higher specific heat (takes more heat to burn the mixture) and a high heat of vaporization (when vaporized can cool down intake air temps dramatically). Ethanol is generally the same characteristics and properties as methanol, but does not cool down the intake charge as well and as mentioned above costs substantially more then methanol.

No, meth is not quite as good at cooling but keep in mind I will continue directly injecting E-85 blends further cooling the mixture. E-85 directly injected cools the charge so much the effective octane ramps to the 160's.

Cooling, check
Octane, check.

What I need is fuel volume and I think E-85 will be superior to meth for that purpose, especially with actual gasoline added.

As far as cost, I keep seeing about $6.00/gal for meth and I paid $1.69 tonight for 3 gallons of corn.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

I'm slightly confused on how one member here has been successful building an 800 horsepower beast utilizing OE.

Whereas 4DR maxed out well before that and had to resort to PI.

1st, there's no need to supplement, or replace/upgrade the LPFP. On my various dyno runs and resulting tune files (DD 400awhp, Stage 1 Track 525awhp, Stage 2 track 617awhp) there was only a scant 1psi drop on the LPFP side across the board.

So that in and of itself, assures me, that the OEM LPFP is perfectly capable.

It was explained to me, that running a completely separate set of injectors, essentially taxes the crap out of the OEM LPFP, and likely why someone was experiencing repeated shutdown of the TB, etc. and required the additional pumps, controls, etc.

I've said it time and time again, it's not necessary to run a separate set of injectors.

Factor in the use of E85 (which I'm not a well known fan of, for a myriad of reasons) it takes a LOT more E, to burn the equivalent of the 93 Pump Gas (or even the 109 Race Gas for the higher tune files).

Moving along, we did see drops on the HPFP side. Which, on it's floor (or lowest end) ranged in the 900-1000psi range(s) respectively. Previous info posted here is accurate in that the desired target range is 2000-2200psi range(s) ideally.

This is where the 100% Methanol factors in.

It was suggested I ramp up to a dual nozzle meth setup in order to reacquire the targeted HPFP range(s).

I did so, and well...... you the see the results.

That's how I am able to "pull off" what I have by completely retaining EVERY ASPECT of the OEM Fueling System.

We all have similar goals in mind as far as desiring to achieve the most power, etc. out of our respective setups.

How we achieve those goals though, will obviously be different.

Some of those differences I have learned over the years, is that 93 Pump Gas is not readily available in all areas of the Country. I'm glad that it is in my area.

It goes w/o saying that others may have to embrace other alternatives/solutions that wouldn't necessarily be in line with my levels of acceptance.

Doesn't mean one is wrong, or one is right. It's just a different means to a different end.

We should all be thankful for all of those who've been involved over the years for their poise, sense of direction, willingness to test, and push the Ecoboost platform in the manner(s) that they have..... EVERYONE.

Ultimately, the results achieved on my SHO speak for themselves.

Great post, and you have a great car. I hope I get to see in person sometime. I've always wanted to drag race a LEO... :biggrin:

For my purposes which I replied to SHOdded, I think corn injection is a better solution to the same end...for me. The more fuel volume I can get, the more corn I can directly inject into the cylinder...the best of both worlds. Cooling and octane (yes, not quite as much as meth.)in the throttle body, massive cooling and octane in the cylinder.

E-85 is also less corrosive than meth so that will be a bonus for system durability. From what I've read it's safer to handle than meth.

I will get canned 91 and 93 tunes for travel and I have E-85 all around me so its definitely convenient.

As far as price i'm seeing about $6.00/gal for meth vs the $1.69/gal I paid for the corn tonight.

What I need to figure out is what if any mods i would need to do convert a WMI system to a CGI (corn gas injection?) system.

Not catching myself or my car on fire is of course the highest priority. Any ideas regarding this would be greatly appreciated.

If I can figure this out, it will be just another tool in the ecoboost toolbox.

If not, I guess I will just go buy some meth and retune. 

Unless..... :nuclear:

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

BPD, I'd love to see your fuel curve, especially WOT 2-3 upshift and 3-2 downshift.