Interesting Video Warning on Ethanol Use

[SHOdded]

I would think you should at the very least move to a severe duty maintenance cycle for both engine/transmission.

 

[redsand]

Emailed Torrie tonight, he said he's been doing E30 tunes.  So I'm going to log where I'm at now running his tune and see if we can come up with something NASTY!  I've been spoiled by the ***, MPT throttle response, so I'd like to see if he's added to that over the past year to keep competitive.  If not, well I'll see what we can come up with if he's on board. 

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

My car is running quite wickedly on E30.

I can't wait for Torrie to tune The Big Girl this spring.

 

[redsand]

Torrie knows his stuff, honestly the thing that pulled me away was the lack of throttle response, if we can get that worked out and get this bad boy flying on E30 I'm in.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

Torrie knows his stuff, honestly the thing that pulled me away was the lack of throttle response, if we can get that worked out and get this bad boy flying on E30 I'm in.

Interesting you say that.

I see that when I increase the blend but the stock tune is able to trim itself out in a day or 2 and fix it.

Same with fuel economy, it goes into the toilet then works itself out.

 

[IHeartGroceries]

Any updates on tuning with mild E blends?
I'm sure it isn't something some tuners are content with, seeing as there will always been the potential for inconsistency when blending at a retail gas dispenser...

And as far as running a stock tune with E30...meh.
Just because you are witnessing the car continuously attempting to maximize efficiency in closed loop operation, doesn't mean there's benefit in heavy load, open loop operation. The benefit comes simply from staving KR, both with octane enhancement and cooling the charge in the cylinders. I still wager the threshold for just that benefits falls between E15 and E20.

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[FoMoCoSHO]

Any updates on tuning with mild E blends?
I'm sure it isn't something some tuners are content with, seeing as there will always been the potential for inconsistency when blending at a retail gas dispenser...

And as far as running a stock tune with E30...meh.
Just because you are witnessing the car continuously attempting to maximize efficiency in closed loop operation, doesn't mean there's benefit in heavy load, open loop operation. The benefit comes simply from staving KR, both with octane enhancement and cooling the charge in the cylinders. I still wager the threshold for just that benefits falls between E15 and E20.

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As far as blend consistency, all you have to do is find the MSDS sheet, use an ethanol calculator, and the fuel level function in Torque to get a consistent mix.

When exactly do these cars run in heavy load open loop?

The only time my car goes into open loop is when you lift and the car goes into decel fuel shutoff.

I do agree that best performance will probably fall somewhere below 30%, the law of diminishing returns and all.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

I forgot to answer your 1st question.

Second tank (@ e-29) and all is well.

Fuel economy is actually a little better so far. (Last tank ended at 17.8)

If there's anything specific i can answer, let me know.

 

[IHeartGroceries]

Your engine's ECU operates in open loop control before the engine is up to operating temp., under WOT, and under heavy load conditions.
Otherwise, while cruising or at idle, it operates in closed loop, and references O2S input signal to continuously balance fuel injection, in order to maintain a stoich AFR. That is what fuel trims indicate - the minute, incremental adjustments to fueling, in order to achieve stoichiometry.
And the stoich AFR between ETOH laden gas and conventional (or E10) is different.
Your E30, oxygen enriched gasoline is starving the engine for fuel, which is why you see fuel trims max out in the positives, and why your mileage Sucks, and the ECU is dumping tons of fuel into the cylinders.
But, under WOT, when you're having the most fun, the E30 (or whatever) will lose its effect pretty quickly, because the stock ECU tables are not formatted to truly utilize the benefits of ethanol blends - your utilizing E10 open loop tables formulated by Ford engineers with your E-whatever. Your AFR and timing tables will act accordingly.

Though, I do figure, like I've already stated, there is a possibility the ECU references a separate set of tables, if certain conditions are right, onset by E15 or E20 use. These cars, afterall, are "E15 ready",  correct?

Even so, I dont doubt the benefits at all of E. In fact, I threw a couple gallons in with my super the other day. Seems to work nicely with my stage 4 Livernois tune. I haven't logged any date yet, however.

Check out black death or fuel pump black gunk on Google. Some people go too far with E.

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[FoMoCoSHO]

Your engine's ECU operates in open loop control before the engine is up to operating temp., under WOT, and under heavy load conditions.
Otherwise, it operates in closed loop, and references O2S input signal to continuously balance fuel injection, in order to maintain a stoich AFR. That is what fuel trims indicate - the minute, incremental adjustments to fueling.
And the stoich AFR between ETOH laden gas and conventional (or E10) is different.
Your E30, oxygen enriched gasoline is starving the engine for fuel, which is why you see fuel trims max out in the positives.
But, under WOT, when you're having the most fun, the E30 (or whatever) will lose its effect pretty quickly, because the stock ECU tables are not formatted to truly utilize the benefits of ethanol blends - your utilizing E10 open loop tables formulated by Ford engineers with your E-whatever.

Though, I do figure, like I've already stated, there is a possibility the ECU references a separate set of tables, if certain conditions are right, onset by E15 or E20 use. These cars, afterall, are "E15 ready",  correct?

Even so, I dont doubt the benefits at all of E. In fact, I threw a couple gallons in with my super the other day. Seems to work nicely with my stage 4 Livernois tune. I haven't logged any date yet, however.

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According to Torque my car does not go into open loop at WOT, just startup and lift conditions.

I'm confused when you say starved for fuel but I have plenty of fuel pressure at the rail. Obviously it has to add fuel to compensate for E-85 but does the mean its actually not receiving enough fuel to cause a dangerous situation?

And if your assertion about the second set of tables is correct, then at 30% it seems the car would be unable to hit the commanded AFR and throw a cel which hasn't happened....yet. My suspicion based upon my experiences is the Eco uses the same deductive refueling logic the flex fuel vehicles do because it behaves in the exact manner described. The flex fuel vehicles don't change AFR either, just trim adjustments, or at least that's my understanding of it based on some papers I put up in 4drs E-85 thread

I agree that my commanded AFR is not perfect with the blend. As the E-85 blend goes up, stoich should decrease, correct?

I'm not trying to be contrary, I'm trying to reconcile your info against my experiences and research. My mind is open to the fact that I could be wrong on any and all accounts.

 

[redsand]

My fuel economy has been as good with E30 in it as running 91 as of late.  I think I just needed to quit throwing x gallons of e85 in one tank and y gallons in the next.  Got 14.5 my last tank, not bad for having neg temps and using the remote start every morning. My LTFT usually stays in the positive range, while the STFT fluctuates MOST of the time in the low positive and dips into the negative, occasionally into .8x.  I just want to tune for it to maximize the effects of E30 and its octane.