It might be time to remove LMS from this forum, vote up and let me know

[StealBlueSHO]

This is kind of what I mean right here.  Your* biggest qualm is not your own experience but rather the experience of others. Three people you respect, admire, and compete with so instead of basing your opinion of an entity based off your own interactions, you're forming an opinion vicariously through their experiences.  That's not to say we don't do this when asking a friend about a restaurant or reading a review on Amazon for a tool we're looking at.  But, when it comes to shops I personally prefer first hand accounts.

I'm not entirely sure what's meant by "we need to stop letting others get burned." We all collectively have zero control over what others do with their cash.  Removing them from the forums will certainly not put them out of business or prevent people from doing business with them.

Regardless that's about all I've got to say about this.  I'm clocking out of this discussion.  Do as you please.

So if your friend got burned by a company, would you endorse that company to another individual?

This question is completely relevant to this post.  Most tuners are endorsed by word of mouth esp by posts on forums like this.  Limiting the discussion and not letting other express themselves is censorship, which most of the time is protecting the company screwing over the customer.

I have seen this time and time again on other Forums.  Company X pays a monthly fee to Forum X.  Company X starts doing shady things and screws customers.  Forum X members start posting negatively about company.  Company X puts pressure on Forum X.  Forum X does not want to lose revenue.  Forum X covers for Company X with either censorship/suppression, ultimately leading to customers getting screwed because they don't know any better.  Happens on every forum.     

Does that allegation include EBPF?

Not that I have seen because I am pretty sure Mike posted the poll. I don't know if there is a vendor fee for this forum. In forums that do charge a fee, the vendor usually gets preferred treatment. Obviously because of revenue. However, LMS has gotten some special treatment in the past when things starting getting spicy before...

This is probably why there is almost a 2 to 1 ratio to remove LMS.

Unless something changed during my extended absence, EBPF takes no money from vendors.

It is a delicate balance protecting the membership from predatory vendors and vendors from members that place false blame without due diligence. Needlessly chasing away vendors when the vendor pool is admittedly shallow due to our platform is also a consideration.

It is my rule to always be a tiny bit biased towards the membership since, IMHO, the vendors hold the power.

I was surprised to see you posting again, hope all is well!

 

[sm105k]

We should shut down comments. This is gonna cause a lot of butt hurt... for now reason...

Leave the poll, shutdown the comments.

This comment is exactly what I am talking about.

Honestly dude, I didn’t even read all the comments, I started but then they just turned into finger pointing and pitting SHO owner against SHO owner.

This community is too small for this crap...

Read the comments. Things are civil, however there are opposing views. Blindly voting without doing any research or having any information past and present from both sides is borderline wreckless and irresponsible.

You are correct, our community is too small. Too small for any company to keep dropping the ball time and time again.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

This is kind of what I mean right here.  Your* biggest qualm is not your own experience but rather the experience of others. Three people you respect, admire, and compete with so instead of basing your opinion of an entity based off your own interactions, you're forming an opinion vicariously through their experiences.  That's not to say we don't do this when asking a friend about a restaurant or reading a review on Amazon for a tool we're looking at.  But, when it comes to shops I personally prefer first hand accounts.

I'm not entirely sure what's meant by "we need to stop letting others get burned." We all collectively have zero control over what others do with their cash.  Removing them from the forums will certainly not put them out of business or prevent people from doing business with them.

Regardless that's about all I've got to say about this.  I'm clocking out of this discussion.  Do as you please.

So if your friend got burned by a company, would you endorse that company to another individual?

This question is completely relevant to this post.  Most tuners are endorsed by word of mouth esp by posts on forums like this.  Limiting the discussion and not letting other express themselves is censorship, which most of the time is protecting the company screwing over the customer.

I have seen this time and time again on other Forums.  Company X pays a monthly fee to Forum X.  Company X starts doing shady things and screws customers.  Forum X members start posting negatively about company.  Company X puts pressure on Forum X.  Forum X does not want to lose revenue.  Forum X covers for Company X with either censorship/suppression, ultimately leading to customers getting screwed because they don't know any better.  Happens on every forum.     

Does that allegation include EBPF?

Not that I have seen because I am pretty sure Mike posted the poll. I don't know if there is a vendor fee for this forum. In forums that do charge a fee, the vendor usually gets preferred treatment. Obviously because of revenue. However, LMS has gotten some special treatment in the past when things starting getting spicy before...

This is probably why there is almost a 2 to 1 ratio to remove LMS.

Unless something changed during my extended absence, EBPF takes no money from vendors.

It is a delicate balance protecting the membership from predatory vendors and vendors from members that place false blame without due diligence. Needlessly chasing away vendors when the vendor pool is admittedly shallow due to our platform is also a consideration.

It is my rule to always be a tiny bit biased towards the membership since, IMHO, the vendors hold the power.

I was surprised to see you posting again, hope all is well!

Considering everything that happened the last 6 years, life is pretty good now!

 

[StealBlueSHO]

We should shut down comments. This is gonna cause a lot of butt hurt... for now reason...

Leave the poll, shutdown the comments.

This comment is exactly what I am talking about.

Honestly dude, I didn’t even read all the comments, I started but then they just turned into finger pointing and pitting SHO owner against SHO owner.

This community is too small for this crap...

Read the comments. Things are civil, however there are opposing views. Blindly voting without doing any research or having any information past and present from both sides is borderline wreckless and irresponsible.

You are correct, our community is too small. Too small for any company to keep dropping the ball time and time again.

Hmm...

The post referencing all the issues with links is good. The problems comes in when people are posting opinions vs actual experience. “I heard it from a friend who....” which is something that can’t be verified.

The approach here should be more on a factual basis with supported links to issues highlighting the problems. Preferably links to issues where LMS is directly responding.

That would provide a good starting point for uninformed members to develop their own opinions. However, I would venture to say, if you don’t have enough information, you shouldn’t be voting.

EDIT: I will say a year ago if you googled “SHO Tuning” LMS would have been the top 5 links.... now it’s below unleashed, 5 star, gearhead, an stage 3... regardless of what you all decide to do, people are clearly “voting” with their wallets.

 

[sm105k]

And they are voting with their wallets because posts in forums are exposing the good and the bad in all turning aspects.

The links I posted are filled with actual LMS tune owners and their experiences.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

And they are voting with their wallets because posts in forums are exposing the good and the bad in all turning aspects.

The links I posted are filled with actual LMS tune owners and their experiences.

Exactly, that’s the kinda of information we need. Plus, it keeps members from getting all bent out of shape.

This guy gets it.

 

[Linemonkey]

I've been on this forum for several years. I'm not a customer of LMS (there's a reason for that) but I've paid close attention to them. I couldn't believe the way they stabbed a vital client like BPD in the back. That alone sank their ship, in my eyes. Perhaps they'd learn from their mistakes if they weren't so busy denying them. They should be cut off like the gangrenous appendage they've become.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[bpd1151]

Wholeheartedly agreed there linemonkey.

Thank you for your words & input.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[SHOdded]

The community is not small, but the active portion is tiny, miniscule even, LOL.

Since our first call to concentrate on voting did not work, consider any comments made after this post to be forfeit.

PLEASE, if you have not voted, do so!  TIA.

 

[sm105k]

With all due respect Shodded, once again your post is exactly what I am talking about.

Mike's last statement "Let us know" while keeping the comments open should tell  everyone everything they need to know if comments are being held within forum standards and rules.

Also I would look to see if there are any "newly registered members" voting. Those votes could manipulate either side of the vote, esp if they are backed from someone that has something to lose.

 

[SHOdded]

We can agree to disagree, once again, and move on.  People are going to believe what they believe, and do what they do.  But when personal attacks enter conversations, that will put an end to those conversations.  Nothing additional that is useful is being added here at this point

 

[sm105k]

We can agree to disagree, once again, and move on.  People are going to believe what they believe, and do what they do.  But when personal attacks enter conversations, that will put an end to those conversations.  Nothing additional that is useful is being added here at this point

As a moderator on other forums, if the forum owner posts asking a question, it isn't our job to dictate what goes on in that thread as moderators regardless what we think. The only person who should be giving directions and or disabling comments should be Mike himself.

This again goes directly to my comments about censorship and bias.

 

[SHOdded]

Enough is enough.  You already know our position. You can choose to accept it ... or not.

 

[sm105k]

Enough is enough.  You already know our position. You can choose to accept it ... or not.

Sorry Shodded, your comments are coming off bias. There have been no personal attacks or community rules broken. I respectfully request you moderator properly and if the situations dictates remove those posts that violate community rules.

 

[802SHO]

What Easton said sounds fair.  Removing posts that violate rules only.  Just my perspective.

 

[Jordan]

Censoring reasonable discussion has always gone well in society.

 

[SHOdded]

Posts were retained to show the acrimony which led to us asking for restraint.  Sorry you do not see it that way.

 

[Jordan]

Well, with that note I'm talking a hiatus from this forum for a couple months

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Lmao... you all know the moderators here do this on their own dime right?

I would say since I have joined in 2015 the moderators have done a very good job trying to keep the forums from turning into a Facebook/social media melting pot of crap.

Forums have always been a place to go get information and share ideas respectfully. Talk about new things and help move the platform forward.

There are multiple types of censorship... one type is having a moderator that removed valid comments, another is members who refuse to let others share their own opinions without jumping all over them.

I personally think everyone needs to take a step back, understand that it is OK to have people who LIKE the same vendor you DONT LIKE.  It is OK to have different opinions respectfully. There have been multiple attempts in this post alone by senior members to keep the discussion respectful.

 

[sm105k]

Posts were retained to show the acrimony which led to us asking for restraint.  Sorry you do not see it that way.

I see a bias Shodded. I know for a fact EBPF moderators have been removed from their duties because of "BIAS". Please refrain from committing the same actions.