LMS 93 Octane vs AJPTurbo E30
- Thread starter Jordan
- Start date
Jordan said:
Cool to see. Hard to see the time slip afterward though. This last spring I switched from Livernois to AJP and I have been extremely happy with the results. Its crazy how much was left on the table with my Livernois Meth tune.
It all started from installing a boost gauge. I was seeing 11 psi. I asked why I needed a 3bar map to read 11 psi and "Alas we wouldn't sell parts that don't work" Ethan @ Livernois. Hmmmm ok? Then I installed their Alky Control Meth kit. Got a free updated 93 Octane Meth tune. And.....11 psi boost. Huh? Asked again about why I was running stock boost...actually to my knowledge stock is 12psi. I said if I wanted to run stock boost I would leave the car stock. I was told to check my boost gauge connection..............crickets...........
Being a hardcore Livernois fan, with my windshield banner and all....I actually considered an alternative tuner or company. Ended up sending Brad a pm and shortly after getting my SCT device we did a 1,2,3 WOT pull and a 3 WOT pull datalog with my Livernois 93 Meth tune. I was commanding 11 psi boost. No way!!!! Who would have thought!?
I never started my car, flashed back to stock with the Mycalibrator and loaded my first base 93 octane tune from Brad. No methonal to start the system was completely shut off. His base 93 octane tune commanded 14 psi boost and I couldn't believe it! No Meth and it felt like I was spraying Meth ...I really think his base 93 tune for my car would walk away from my previous Livernois Meth tune.
I still do like Livernois. Hopefully it doesn't sound like a dis or anything. Just my personal experience with both Livernois and then AJP.
802SHO said:
I like Livernois they are a decent one size fits all "safe" tuner. Just don't expect to get the full experience. It's good for the people who don't want to do anything other than a tune on their cars, but that's IMO. He ran an 12.61 and I ran a 12.08 on this run. Immediately after we tore off the exhaust for the 11.98 glory run ha!
Dude bring a hunting rifle with you next time holy crap that’s in the sticks. Do you have to wear an orange hat or anything when you race? All kidding aside great run Jordan your car simple amazes me. Thanks for sharing the video.
Hey Andrew nice to see a track actually let’s you use a go pro lol
Hey Andrew nice to see a track actually let’s you use a go pro lol
shoNoff said:
Lol I know what the heck! I saw that and I almost asked Jordan if he had to bolt it to the car(since that's what our track says you must do) then I snapped out of it and realized of course he didn't bolt it to the car...that would be stupid! Haha our track is odd thats for sure cuzzzzzz GoPros have no problem with those 3M sticky pads and no one bolts them to their cars! Jeez...why cant they just say no GoPros instead!???
Funny... I had a similar experience with LMS... I believe the post is around here somewhere... was running LMS 93 4+x Race... paid for the alky kit asked several times if there was a solid tune from them that made the cost worth it specifically for Methanol .. was then told the 4+x race tune was best tune available (huh? then why did I pay extra for an alky kit through LMS if they don't offer a tune to take advantage of it?!) long story short... LMS ended up sending me an updated tune later that night apologizing for the confusion...
HOWEVER... that being said.. my tune demanded 186.25 kpa which is 12.3psi of boost... and I was running 12.4's consistently at the track with it. It was smooth from launch to finish..
Couple things to remember about LMS..
1: Their alky meth tunes do not make the car the reliant on meth for safety reasons. If you talk to anyone over there worth their salt.. they will tell you the BIGGEST reason for their offering of the alky meth solution is to offset the lack of available fuel and to the cool the charge which helps with heat soak.
2: LMS tunes are designed for safety first and all year round performance. Could they jack up the boost/spark and create more power? Sure, but the impact to reliability and drive ability all year round is a concern.
Can you get a custom tune from an SCT vendor that gets more out of the car than LMS does with their tune, absolutely. Brads meth tune on my 2010 was wicked fast.. I was producing power to the point where the drive train flat out COULD NOT handle getting it reliability to the ground (Search the forum for my drag strip runs... didn't matter what tire, psi, etc.. getting the power to ground was painful)... I had similar results with my Gearhead meth tune although I never got to run it at the track. Unleashed is the same... etc etc.. but one thing they have in common with meth tunes is that the car becomes RELIANT on meth at those power levels. Meaning if something in the meth system fails.. you better hope that your ECU can respond fast enough to save the motor. I know Brad and Matt Robinson build in a ton a safety measures for the meth tune in the event that happens, but nothing is guaranteed.
That isn't a knock on those tuners by any far stretch, its more of a "What are your goals with the vehicle".. My 2010 ran like a raped ape until the motor blew up, but that was a risk I was willing to take.
When talking to the the LMS guys, its important to really discuss your goal and ask the right questions. I have found that they wont volunteer information unless you ask specifically. Asking "Will the Alky Meth kit really make a difference in power" is an open ended question.. yes it will.. but to what extent?
On a side note: While boost and spark generate power, there are more pieces to the puzzle.. with these cars its not all about boost and spark.. The last time I ran at MIR with Brads meth tune vs LMS meth tune they ran IDENTICAL times... 12.4's.. Brads tune had a hell of a lot more power, but I wasn't able to effectively use it.
HOWEVER... that being said.. my tune demanded 186.25 kpa which is 12.3psi of boost... and I was running 12.4's consistently at the track with it. It was smooth from launch to finish..
Couple things to remember about LMS..
1: Their alky meth tunes do not make the car the reliant on meth for safety reasons. If you talk to anyone over there worth their salt.. they will tell you the BIGGEST reason for their offering of the alky meth solution is to offset the lack of available fuel and to the cool the charge which helps with heat soak.
2: LMS tunes are designed for safety first and all year round performance. Could they jack up the boost/spark and create more power? Sure, but the impact to reliability and drive ability all year round is a concern.
Can you get a custom tune from an SCT vendor that gets more out of the car than LMS does with their tune, absolutely. Brads meth tune on my 2010 was wicked fast.. I was producing power to the point where the drive train flat out COULD NOT handle getting it reliability to the ground (Search the forum for my drag strip runs... didn't matter what tire, psi, etc.. getting the power to ground was painful)... I had similar results with my Gearhead meth tune although I never got to run it at the track. Unleashed is the same... etc etc.. but one thing they have in common with meth tunes is that the car becomes RELIANT on meth at those power levels. Meaning if something in the meth system fails.. you better hope that your ECU can respond fast enough to save the motor. I know Brad and Matt Robinson build in a ton a safety measures for the meth tune in the event that happens, but nothing is guaranteed.
That isn't a knock on those tuners by any far stretch, its more of a "What are your goals with the vehicle".. My 2010 ran like a raped ape until the motor blew up, but that was a risk I was willing to take.
When talking to the the LMS guys, its important to really discuss your goal and ask the right questions. I have found that they wont volunteer information unless you ask specifically. Asking "Will the Alky Meth kit really make a difference in power" is an open ended question.. yes it will.. but to what extent?
On a side note: While boost and spark generate power, there are more pieces to the puzzle.. with these cars its not all about boost and spark.. The last time I ran at MIR with Brads meth tune vs LMS meth tune they ran IDENTICAL times... 12.4's.. Brads tune had a hell of a lot more power, but I wasn't able to effectively use it.
StealBlueSho said:
I do remember reading your posts about their meth tune and finding you could run their meth tune without even spraying Meth and be ok.
I agree with you. I definitely agree you need to talk to the right person over there, and I'm not saying Ethan isnt pleasant to talk to and friendly, its just as a consumer when you ask a specific question and you get a vague defensive sounding answer it feels less than professional. I've often thought to myself....why don't people generally just say I don't know? I'm sorry I don't have much expertise with the specific car and question..I will have so and so follow up with you...or say I don't know. Too often people feel they need to give some sort of explanation and guess not knowing if what theyre saying is true. I'll take an educated guess...but don't tell me we don't sell stuff that doesnt work?...please say I dont know. Hahahahaha
By the seat of my pants and watching my speedometer climb I was very happy with my tunes. I know its also not just about boost but 11psi? That was 93 stage 4x with plugs, t stat, intake and downpipes. Then with Meth..boost didnt change.
My goal isnt to blow my car up, but 11psi was too low...with all my mods I wanted to push the car a bit, and yes more than 11psi. I tried to get another tune with some more boost but they said I should check my connection and most customers said they were 13-14 with same tune. And that brought up another aspect...a one size fits all tune. Of course that doesn't affect each car the same and of course it must be much more on the safe side.
For my goals I would need a custom Meth tune in house. Drive and make an entire weekend out of traveling to Michigan. Pay $300 or so for a custom dyno tune...very cool but not very cost effective.
So yes theyre a great company with a great reputation. Clearly if I was looking to get an engine built...would be knocking on their door.
I just needed more = AJP = 11 second runs lol!
Livernois Motorsports
New member
Out of all of the taurus shos we have done i havent seen any make less than 14psi, maybe 13.5, if you were only commanding 11psi it does definitely seem like there was either an issue with the guage or the car in general, you can always tune around a problem but doesnt mean it solved your issue but out of personal experience i have never seen one make less than around 14psi ford doesnt read boost in psi or kpa and to get the correct numbers so its hard to really say what was going on and like said earlier in the thread our tunes are made for daily use without causing harm to the vehicle while still making great power and alot of people even myself in my 2015 sho havent seen any problems at all but its always something we could take a look at if you ever decided to come back our way in the future just let me know and ill do my best to help you out!802SHO said:
Livernois Motorsports said:
LMS with all due respect... and you know I recommend you guys. But none of your tunes in the 2010-2012 demand 14psi... and I think the 2013+ is right at 13.5ish... I can pull the number when I get home. Spikes sure... but not holding 14psi in third gear.. just under on the 2013+...
2010-2012 is holding 12-11psi up top... even with meth...
I’m pulling right off the sensors before the throttle body and at the intake manifold.. so if it’s wrong, then there are other problems...
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Livernois Motorsports said:
I appreciate the response and the invitation to be welcomed back in the future. As far as the boost reading, it was measured initially with a mechanical boost gauge. After inquiring I checked everything over multiple times. The car felt good otherwise. If I never installed the gauge I would have assumed a much higher reading based on the benefits of upgrading to a 3bar map sensor and methonal. When doing my own research and learning about a 3bar map sensor it was an educated assumption that if my car was tuned for a 3bar sensor I would be using more boost. If not then why would my car run rough if tuned for a 3bar if I left the 2bar installed if in fact boost wasnt increased? Without boost being increased why would I need a 3bar? That was my question and I was hit with vague answers and then a shot in the dark about the proposition of taking the accountability of the company into question based on Ethan's response. It was never about that. And with Meth, safely increase boost/prevent detonation and cool the intake charge...then why not increase boost? It was not making sense to me. My intention for purchasing each mod was for the sole purpose of utilizing each for what they were manufactured to do.
I ditched the mechanical gauge and installed an Aeroforce Interceptor Scan Gauge hooked directly to my OBD port. Same readings. And then lastly some datalogs of the tune confirming again the same readings. My car is healthy and running strong. Its being pushed but not to the extent of engine or drivetrain imminent failure. Probably the best benefit of datalogging is the ability to steer clear of catastrophic failures since the health of the car is recorded for review. Nothing is bulletproof but its pretty safe.
I'm very happy with my tuner. If I'm looking to push my car I wouldnt trust anyone else. Your tunes are safe and reliable and fast, theres no denying that but for my needs it was too safe and not fast enough.
802SHO said:
The 3BAR does provide safety with boost spikes... you could cover it with short term fuel trims but much better to have the ecu get accurate information.
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