LMS 93 Octane vs AJPTurbo E30

[Livernois Motorsports]

I appreciate the response and the invitation to be welcomed back in the future.  As far as the boost reading, it was measured initially with a mechanical boost gauge.  After inquiring I checked everything over multiple times.  The car felt good otherwise.  If I never installed the gauge I would have assumed a much higher reading based on the benefits of upgrading to a 3bar map sensor and methonal.  When doing my own research and learning about a 3bar map sensor it was an educated assumption that if my car was tuned for a 3bar sensor I would be using more boost.  If not then why would my car run rough if tuned for a 3bar if I left the 2bar installed if in fact boost wasnt increased?  Without boost being increased why would I need a 3bar?  That was my question and I was hit with vague answers and then a shot in the dark about the proposition of taking the accountability of the company into question based on Ethan's response.  It was never about that.  And with Meth, safely increase boost/prevent detonation and cool the intake charge...then why not increase boost?  It was not making sense to me.  My intention for purchasing each mod was for the sole purpose of utilizing each for what they were manufactured to do. 

I ditched the mechanical gauge and installed an Aeroforce Interceptor Scan Gauge hooked directly to my OBD port.  Same readings.  And then lastly some datalogs of the tune confirming again the same readings.  My car is healthy and running strong.  Its being pushed but not to the extent of engine or drivetrain imminent failure.  Probably the best benefit of datalogging is the ability to steer clear of catastrophic failures since the health of the car is recorded for review.  Nothing is bulletproof but its pretty safe. 

I'm very happy with my tuner.  If I'm looking to push my car I wouldnt trust anyone else.  Your tunes are safe and reliable and fast, theres no denying that but for my needs it was too safe and not fast enough. 

At the end of the day, we can always set up someone's tune for more boost so long as they understand we keep things within a safety net for very specific reasons. Going outside of this window can, but not always, result in failure. If they know, and truly understand this then we can step on it more. No one out there has more control over what an EcoBoost does than us, to that end, it also means no one can do something we aren't capable of, but it does circle back to just because we can doesn't mean we should.

I think that many people might misunderstand, or maybe don't know why we do the things we do. in around 2007 or so we started developing our own software for certain vehicles. This was done out of need as there was often errors, or missing items in commercially available solutions. We found ourselves often having to chase issues caused by the software rather than focus on being able to calibrate things properly. Since we were having to chase down errors to work around them, we felt it was best to start taking the time to make things for our own exclusive use and knowledge. Since those days we have greatly expanded our coverage, understanding, and capability, especially in the world of EcoBoost. This is why we have so often been first to market, sometimes offering tuning solutions for years before anyone else, and have offered solutions that no one offers today (like calibration for our fuel pumps, flex fuel on certain applications, etc). This also allowed us to ensure that we are calibrating these vehicles while utilizing the OEM control logic, rather than brute forcing it to do what we want. One key to this is ensuring that the data being reviewed is proper. This means that it has to be in the proper values in regards to the PCM. So when people datalog, and they talk about Boost in PSI, or KPA in any value other than in-Hg, it's not going to be accurate. On these cars, every bit of pressure is measured this way, and the only way to properly understand and control these is if you log, and calibrate using this unit since it's the only unit that doesn't get a conversion, or offset added to it. So, if you look at the attached log you can see what we mean. You see that the desired pressure is 62, this is an absolute value that has not had the baro value removed. So if baro is 30, then it's got a desired pressure of 32 in-Hg above atmospheric pressure. This roughly translates to 15.7 PSI, no where near as low as the 11 PSI that is being referenced, but when you are logging the incorrect parameter, in the incorrect unit, this type of thing happens. But it also shows that we can command pressures higher than our standard tuning.

Fast forward to what we offer now, often people have talked about logging, and wanting the capability to log and send those logs to us. Up until the release of our MyCalibrator Touch, we had always said no. Mostly for the reasons above, incorrect data items, incorrect units, and often, far too slow of a data sample rate to be of any real use. Well, as we build out the function on the MyCalibrator Touch this will not be a problem anymore. We will be able to review, and trust it. Currently it's still in BETA, but it's close to being a stable release so it can be used more for actual tune revisions, and for those who want to log for peace of mind.

Oh, and on the 3-bar, it's always been a safety thing. Because if you peg the stock 2-bar by .1 in-Hg, or 100 it has no idea, and doesn't know how much to react to get boost back under control.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

I appreciate the response and the invitation to be welcomed back in the future.  As far as the boost reading, it was measured initially with a mechanical boost gauge.  After inquiring I checked everything over multiple times.  The car felt good otherwise.  If I never installed the gauge I would have assumed a much higher reading based on the benefits of upgrading to a 3bar map sensor and methonal.  When doing my own research and learning about a 3bar map sensor it was an educated assumption that if my car was tuned for a 3bar sensor I would be using more boost.  If not then why would my car run rough if tuned for a 3bar if I left the 2bar installed if in fact boost wasnt increased?  Without boost being increased why would I need a 3bar?  That was my question and I was hit with vague answers and then a shot in the dark about the proposition of taking the accountability of the company into question based on Ethan's response.  It was never about that.  And with Meth, safely increase boost/prevent detonation and cool the intake charge...then why not increase boost?  It was not making sense to me.  My intention for purchasing each mod was for the sole purpose of utilizing each for what they were manufactured to do. 

I ditched the mechanical gauge and installed an Aeroforce Interceptor Scan Gauge hooked directly to my OBD port.  Same readings.  And then lastly some datalogs of the tune confirming again the same readings.  My car is healthy and running strong.  Its being pushed but not to the extent of engine or drivetrain imminent failure.  Probably the best benefit of datalogging is the ability to steer clear of catastrophic failures since the health of the car is recorded for review.  Nothing is bulletproof but its pretty safe. 

I'm very happy with my tuner.  If I'm looking to push my car I wouldnt trust anyone else.  Your tunes are safe and reliable and fast, theres no denying that but for my needs it was too safe and not fast enough. 

At the end of the day, we can always set up someone's tune for more boost so long as they understand we keep things within a safety net for very specific reasons. Going outside of this window can, but not always, result in failure. If they know, and truly understand this then we can step on it more. No one out there has more control over what an EcoBoost does than us, to that end, it also means no one can do something we aren't capable of, but it does circle back to just because we can doesn't mean we should.

I think that many people might misunderstand, or maybe don't know why we do the things we do. in around 2007 or so we started developing our own software for certain vehicles. This was done out of need as there was often errors, or missing items in commercially available solutions. We found ourselves often having to chase issues caused by the software rather than focus on being able to calibrate things properly. Since we were having to chase down errors to work around them, we felt it was best to start taking the time to make things for our own exclusive use and knowledge. Since those days we have greatly expanded our coverage, understanding, and capability, especially in the world of EcoBoost. This is why we have so often been first to market, sometimes offering tuning solutions for years before anyone else, and have offered solutions that no one offers today (like calibration for our fuel pumps, flex fuel on certain applications, etc). This also allowed us to ensure that we are calibrating these vehicles while utilizing the OEM control logic, rather than brute forcing it to do what we want. One key to this is ensuring that the data being reviewed is proper. This means that it has to be in the proper values in regards to the PCM. So when people datalog, and they talk about Boost in PSI, or KPA in any value other than in-Hg, it's not going to be accurate. On these cars, every bit of pressure is measured this way, and the only way to properly understand and control these is if you log, and calibrate using this unit since it's the only unit that doesn't get a conversion, or offset added to it. So, if you look at the attached log you can see what we mean. You see that the desired pressure is 62, this is an absolute value that has not had the baro value removed. So if baro is 30, then it's got a desired pressure of 32 in-Hg above atmospheric pressure. This roughly translates to 15.7 PSI, no where near as low as the 11 PSI that is being referenced, but when you are logging the incorrect parameter, in the incorrect unit, this type of thing happens. But it also shows that we can command pressures higher than our standard tuning.

Fast forward to what we offer now, often people have talked about logging, and wanting the capability to log and send those logs to us. Up until the release of our MyCalibrator Touch, we had always said no. Mostly for the reasons above, incorrect data items, incorrect units, and often, far too slow of a data sample rate to be of any real use. Well, as we build out the function on the MyCalibrator Touch this will not be a problem anymore. We will be able to review, and trust it. Currently it's still in BETA, but it's close to being a stable release so it can be used more for actual tune revisions, and for those who want to log for peace of mind.

Oh, and on the 3-bar, it's always been a safety thing. Because if you peg the stock 2-bar by .1 in-Hg, or 100 it has no idea, and doesn't know how much to react to get boost back under control.

Thanks for the insight! I know on the MyCalibrator Touch demanded was around 57-58inhg which equates to about 14psi on my V11 E30 HPFP tune.


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[StealBlueSHO]

I appreciate the response and the invitation to be welcomed back in the future.  As far as the boost reading, it was measured initially with a mechanical boost gauge.  After inquiring I checked everything over multiple times.  The car felt good otherwise.  If I never installed the gauge I would have assumed a much higher reading based on the benefits of upgrading to a 3bar map sensor and methonal.  When doing my own research and learning about a 3bar map sensor it was an educated assumption that if my car was tuned for a 3bar sensor I would be using more boost.  If not then why would my car run rough if tuned for a 3bar if I left the 2bar installed if in fact boost wasnt increased?  Without boost being increased why would I need a 3bar?  That was my question and I was hit with vague answers and then a shot in the dark about the proposition of taking the accountability of the company into question based on Ethan's response.  It was never about that.  And with Meth, safely increase boost/prevent detonation and cool the intake charge...then why not increase boost?  It was not making sense to me.  My intention for purchasing each mod was for the sole purpose of utilizing each for what they were manufactured to do. 

I ditched the mechanical gauge and installed an Aeroforce Interceptor Scan Gauge hooked directly to my OBD port.  Same readings.  And then lastly some datalogs of the tune confirming again the same readings.  My car is healthy and running strong.  Its being pushed but not to the extent of engine or drivetrain imminent failure.  Probably the best benefit of datalogging is the ability to steer clear of catastrophic failures since the health of the car is recorded for review.  Nothing is bulletproof but its pretty safe. 

I'm very happy with my tuner.  If I'm looking to push my car I wouldnt trust anyone else.  Your tunes are safe and reliable and fast, theres no denying that but for my needs it was too safe and not fast enough. 

At the end of the day, we can always set up someone's tune for more boost so long as they understand we keep things within a safety net for very specific reasons. Going outside of this window can, but not always, result in failure. If they know, and truly understand this then we can step on it more. No one out there has more control over what an EcoBoost does than us, to that end, it also means no one can do something we aren't capable of, but it does circle back to just because we can doesn't mean we should.

I think that many people might misunderstand, or maybe don't know why we do the things we do. in around 2007 or so we started developing our own software for certain vehicles. This was done out of need as there was often errors, or missing items in commercially available solutions. We found ourselves often having to chase issues caused by the software rather than focus on being able to calibrate things properly. Since we were having to chase down errors to work around them, we felt it was best to start taking the time to make things for our own exclusive use and knowledge. Since those days we have greatly expanded our coverage, understanding, and capability, especially in the world of EcoBoost. This is why we have so often been first to market, sometimes offering tuning solutions for years before anyone else, and have offered solutions that no one offers today (like calibration for our fuel pumps, flex fuel on certain applications, etc). This also allowed us to ensure that we are calibrating these vehicles while utilizing the OEM control logic, rather than brute forcing it to do what we want. One key to this is ensuring that the data being reviewed is proper. This means that it has to be in the proper values in regards to the PCM. So when people datalog, and they talk about Boost in PSI, or KPA in any value other than in-Hg, it's not going to be accurate. On these cars, every bit of pressure is measured this way, and the only way to properly understand and control these is if you log, and calibrate using this unit since it's the only unit that doesn't get a conversion, or offset added to it. So, if you look at the attached log you can see what we mean. You see that the desired pressure is 62, this is an absolute value that has not had the baro value removed. So if baro is 30, then it's got a desired pressure of 32 in-Hg above atmospheric pressure. This roughly translates to 15.7 PSI, no where near as low as the 11 PSI that is being referenced, but when you are logging the incorrect parameter, in the incorrect unit, this type of thing happens. But it also shows that we can command pressures higher than our standard tuning.

Fast forward to what we offer now, often people have talked about logging, and wanting the capability to log and send those logs to us. Up until the release of our MyCalibrator Touch, we had always said no. Mostly for the reasons above, incorrect data items, incorrect units, and often, far too slow of a data sample rate to be of any real use. Well, as we build out the function on the MyCalibrator Touch this will not be a problem anymore. We will be able to review, and trust it. Currently it's still in BETA, but it's close to being a stable release so it can be used more for actual tune revisions, and for those who want to log for peace of mind.

Oh, and on the 3-bar, it's always been a safety thing. Because if you peg the stock 2-bar by .1 in-Hg, or 100 it has no idea, and doesn't know how much to react to get boost back under control.

So I have question... here are two screen captures. One is from a 2010 LMS Tuned 4+X Alky Meth Tune and the other is from a 2016 LMS Tuned E30 HPFP V11 tune..  I have highlighted desired boost and RPM... similar to how your screen capture is.. I cannot speak for the 2010 as the MyCalibrator Touch was not released, however, on the 2016 screen capture.. the MyCalibrator Touch Device is in agreement when I do the inHg conversion to KPA or PSI to the SCT device. And yes, there is a separate PID in SCT that takes into account baro pressure to accurately display boost and not just KPA of desired...

Unless something is WAY off.. and I doubt it.. the LMS 2010-2012 4+X tune(Meth or not) calls for 12.3psi which drops in the upper rpms to 11ish and the 2013+ V11 tune call for 13.79psi.

In the screen cap I see you are just under 6K rpms with 15.7psi and 11 degrees of spark.. none of the LMS tunes for either my 2010 or 2016 demand those numbers at that RPM...

I just think you are going to start a major issue with your customers who are expecting to see 14+ psi and when they don't, they will be hunting for a non-existent issue ultimately leading to a really crappy customer experience. 

 

[802SHO]

It would make sense to quote but theyre so long I couldn't do it lol!

Livernois.  Yes I did send an email asking for a revised tune with more boost.  No one replied saying that was a possibility.  If it was I would still be tuned with you guys.  I like that you sent the logs but it's unknown what year and mods that vehicle has that made that log.  I agree that no one can do something your company cannot...and it makes sense to say..just because we can doesn't mean we should.  I just wish with my personal experience it would have been an option to get a modified tune with more boost and spark.  I would assume such an increase with so many variables(car condition) unknown to be a slight increase but I would have been satisfied. 

SBS.  You basically summed up my customer experience.  Chasing an issue that didnt exist in hopes of achieving an unrealistic goal given the circumstances.  Not an experience to make me angry but one that led to me considering alternative tuning companies or tuners. 

And maybe its hard to understand, its certainly not easy to explain but I had a gut feeling my car had more in it.  Perhaps confidence or something more but just a feeling.  Lol maybe from bonding so much with it doing mostly everything to it myself. 

 

[ZSHO]

I must agree with 802SHO as the extensive quotes are making me a bit dizzy. Lol.  Z

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Don’t worry Brad... I screen capped this before the moderators removed it...


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[Livernois Motorsports]

So I have question... here are two screen captures. One is from a 2010 LMS Tuned 4+X Alky Meth Tune and the other is from a 2016 LMS Tuned E30 HPFP V11 tune..  I have highlighted desired boost and RPM... similar to how your screen capture is.. I cannot speak for the 2010 as the MyCalibrator Touch was not released, however, on the 2016 screen capture.. the MyCalibrator Touch Device is in agreement when I do the inHg conversion to KPA or PSI to the SCT device. And yes, there is a separate PID in SCT that takes into account baro pressure to accurately display boost and not just KPA of desired...

Unless something is WAY off.. and I doubt it.. the LMS 2010-2012 4+X tune(Meth or not) calls for 12.3psi which drops in the upper rpms to 11ish and the 2013+ V11 tune call for 13.79psi.

In the screen cap I see you are just under 6K rpms with 15.7psi and 11 degrees of spark.. none of the LMS tunes for either my 2010 or 2016 demand those numbers at that RPM...

I just think you are going to start a major issue with your customers who are expecting to see 14+ psi and when they don't, they will be hunting for a non-existent issue ultimately leading to a really crappy customer experience. 

There are a few things to take into account though on the log though, you had to select just the right one, and make certain it's got all of that baked into the figure. Often people don't, and even more often we're dealing with brand new strategy families that 3rd party offerings aren't figured out yet. we would often get junk data sent to us, or logs sent telling us we need to run more timing because they don't see knock, but the refresh rate was an absurdly slow 2.8 seconds, giving the customer false assurance on having more room left.

what we shared is proof showing we can go higher than our standard setup, not a reflection of what our standard tune offerings do. That is why we felt it important to share that screen grab.

The 10-12 cars do log, and behave differently than the 13+ since they have a completely different controller and logic behind them.

now, 802, obviously that isn't the type of experience we want people to have. From our experience these car's typically don't target that low on the 4X tunes, so we like to make certain all mechanically items are in order before doing anything on the cal side. This is from experience with items like boost leaks, 1 failed turbo, or a bad wastegate solenoid. this is because so often, that's the exact issues we find with these cars when they have less than typical boost numbers.

 

[polskifacet]

I gave LMS a year, and over 50 phone calls as well as an on-site visit to make good on tuning my vehicle and yall didn't come through. Brad made a extremely simple adjustment to make the car work. My advice is to take LMS's promises with a grain of salt, some cars don't fit in their defined sweet spot and they don't deviate from that sweet spot.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I gave LMS a year, and over 50 phone calls as well as an on-site visit to make good on tuning my vehicle and yall didn't come through. Brad made a extremely simple adjustment to make the car work. My advice is to take LMS's promises with a grain of salt, some cars don't fit in their defined sweet spot and they don't deviate from that sweet spot.

From doing some research on this topic, and working from recollection your main issue of concern was that you were having HPFP issues with the stock pump. On the calibration side of things there is nothing in our tuning that would cause the factory HPFP from functioning as it is supposed to, but we definitely wanted to see what we could to to help, so we set something up so you would bring the car here and we put the car on the dyno. This was done at a discount compared to normal because we really did want to go over it for you, normally this would have been 300-400 more to run, log, perform calibration adjustments, and mechanically look over the vehicle for any issues. When we confirmed that the calibration itself was not the source, we offered a solution of swapping to a our upgraded HPFP from us at a substantial discount, but unfortunately declined that offer. Basically there are only 3 ways to eliminate the fuel pressure drop issue on these, and 1 is proper, 1 is not ideal, but safe, and 1 is a no-no in our opinion/experience. The proper way is of course upgrading the fuel pump. This is the only way to keep the power it makes, and ensure proper fueling under all conditions. the safe, but less than ideal option is to reduce power. and the option that would reduce the pressure drop while keeping power in would be to run the car leaner than what we set them up for. Obviously, while one may get away with that option, I think we can all agree that it's the least safe. Ultimately we feel we did our best to help you out because we sincerely wanted the situation to be better and still be safe for the vehicle. We go out of our way to ensure we do not tune around issues, and come up with solutions that are the proper methods. We respect that someone else got you satisfied, but that doesn't automatically equal the problem being solved. Just that the symptom went away. We prescribed the cure, not a symptom treatment.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Here we go... this was settled awhile ago... no reason to take a trip down memory lane...


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[SHOdded]

I don't think either party is going to budge LOL, so definitely, let's move on.  It is what it is.