my 2017 SHO w/PP

[Cobra93]

Hello everyone. Sorry for the long post, but I try to give all the info I can without you having to ask.

I purchased my '17 SHO w'PP back in march of '20.
The car has been fantastic, until a couple of months ago.

My car is stock, the front hubs have been replaced a couple of years ago, other than that. No issues.
I have a warranty until march of '25. ford protect.

I just purchased a tune from Matt at Gearhead and I'm waiting for the tune.
I figured if any issues are going to happen I should find out within the warranty instead of waiting.
The dealer I used for the problems I had a couple of months ago is tune friendly and That is what changed my mind about putting a tune on my car.
He said "if it doesn't look like abuse, they will get paid by ford or me. He doesn't care".

I thought I' d use torque to get a baseline 0-60 time as a comparison, whether it's correct or not I think I should be able to use it to see what improvement there is.
It is 80 degrees today and my 0-60 was 6.8 (just flooring it) and 6.3 foot braking it to 1,500-2,000.
My car seems to "lazy" until 4,000-4,500 rpm, then takes off the way I think it should.
I didn't expect this to be so slow. I thought it was just me being used to the car.
I'm not sure where to even look/start looking.

A couple months ago I floor it to pass someone on the e-way and the car went into limp mode. The engine was shaking  bad if I gave it any gas. It took about 30 seconds for the engine light to stop flashing and it would run normal.
This happened 3 times so I took it to the dealer.
I had to take it back 3 times to get everything sorted.
I like the guy that does the diagnosis, but the mechanic was terrible.

Long story short as I can.

The rear turbo was leaking oil, I saw this on the oil return line (dripping).
I had 8 or more codes, fuel rail pressure, misfire on multiple cylinders and transmission codes.

Over the 3 visits they replaced the rear turbo, all 3 firewall injectors, the HP fuel pump (twice), Map sensor, an 02 sensor, some fuel lines and the injector rails.

I was told an orifice in the fuel rail had corroded, broken apart and was clogging the back 3 injectors.
This explains why the car ran fine until I got on it.

I used to wrench on all my cars, but I don't think I can do much engine/trans. wise on this car.
I keep up on fluid changes. I just changed the RDU, PTU and another 5 out/ 5in on the trans. I thought now would be a good time (again).
Today the car seemed to take off from a stop like it was N/A, then ran normal after 4,000 rpm.
There seems to be a surge under acceleration like a misfire or boost "flutter" (blow off/ waste gate opening/closing that happens very quickly). It is very difficult to describe.

I don't know what to look for on torque for any clues.
I have never logged anything, so I don't know how to do this without some explanation as to how.
I don't know if I should even load the tune Matt sends me.
I'd be happy to try whatever I can to give you info to help point me in the correct direction.

I'll go back to the dealer, but The mechanic from last time was terrible.
He didn't re install the lower engine cover, he didn't re install the push in fasteners that should be in the lower splash shield in front of the lower engine cover, he didn't plug the boost reference hose back in on the intake piping, things like that.

Thanks for any help/direction you can provide, Joe

 

[SHOdded]

surge can be turbo surge or torque converter. being under acceleration does point it towards a turbo system issue. may be a turbo or may be a wastegate actuator or blowoff valve. or even an unclamped control hose on top of the manifold that has popped.

another possibility is crud buildup in the intercooler to the extent it is being pulled into the intake under acceleration.

finally doing the plugs is an essential and necessary task for many reasons. on an ICE engine, easily one of the best indicators of potential problems.

and yes do not install the tune unless this problem is resolved.

https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,107.0.html

 

[Cobra93]

I have a depstech scope, I'll try to snake it down to the inter cooler and see if there's fluid in the bottom.
The plugs are new (2,000 miles) .030 gap motorcraft.
I'll check the clamps on the intake tubes to make sure they're all tight.

I do have torque showing boost, it does seem to jump around a lot (8-12 psi).
There should be a vacuum controlled waste gate on the turbo, correct?
I'll look for the metal rod to make sure it is connected?

Thanks for the help SHOdded. 

 

[SHOdded]

theres a wastegate controller on top of the intake with 3 unclamped small diameter hoses attached to it. a hose could be working its way loose or already be loose. though it usually ends up setting a code. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhBu5XtafU

now a tear in the diaphragm of the blowoff valve is not immediately visible, so unless you are looking for it, you may miss it.

yes, check the c-clips on the wastegate actuators on the turbos, tho you'd think they would cause problems at all speeds.

 

[Cobra93]

That is the hose they didn't reconnect and I had no power.
It is on and I put a zip tie on it last night.
I'll check for codes, I should've done that yesterday.
I'll have to find my vacuum pump and make sure the daiphrams hold vacuum.

Thanks again, I appreciate the help.
I'll post back when I can check some of these things.

The Pic you posted didn't show up on my pc for some reason, but did on my phone. I'll check that.
I was thinking of the one on the turbo.

This morning I had no boost until 2nd gear the first time i floored it. After that no real issues.
I do see hpfp press is 2,400 ish psi max. Timing advance is around 18 degrees.
Trying to watch rpm and vac/boost guage. I get around 10 psi by 2,500_3,000 rpm.
I put the intake manifold press up as well. It always reads positive?

When I floored it (outside if the first time) boost held very steady at 10 psi.

Just trying to give all the (correct) info I can.

I'll check what I can after work today.

Thanks again.

 

[Cobra93]

I took some pics of the BOV, CAC and the throttle body today.
I was surprised at how much oil was dripping down the TB.
I didn't see or extract much oil from the CAC. I'll try this sunday with a shop vac, the hand pump didn't do much.
I did push the dipstick down to the bottom, there was less than 3/16" on it.
Not sure how much was from the bottom and how much smeared when I put it in and pulled it out.
I did jack the drivers side of the car up more than 12".
I assume they must have changed the design of the BOV from your pic????
Neither of mine have the orange membrane/diaphragm.

I did see what looked like an orange o-ring in the CAC,  but that would've had to travel through the cooling fin. No idea.

 

[SHOdded]

what is the hpfp fuel pressure at idle? how does the lpfp pressure behave. if it is a fuel problem, could be the fuel pump control module under the rear seat.

i am not sure but intake pressure should always be positive. neg/pos you might be thinking of the pcv system and/or boost readings.

looks like the diaphragms are intact, wont see them until you put pressure on the valve to expand it.

that much oil in the throttle body is a concern. it could come from the turbo or the pcv system. since the pcv valve is a known weak point might want to change it. also check the intake tubing and turbo piping for pooling oil. pooling oil in turbo piping would indicate a new turbo is needed.

lets check out the easiest things first.

 

[Cobra93]

I believe the idle fuel pressure is around 250-264 psi, it ramps up very quickly when going wot.

I believe intake manifold pressure is always positive.
I did break a couple of intake connections and everything is only shiny, but I didn't look at any low points. Also looking into the intake manifold was only shiny.

I pushed the bov down and it moves very smooth. I didn't pull up on it.

I did remove the hard line that goes from the rear valve cover to the intake,  just behind the throttle body at the bend towards the plenum. I assume the dark orange piece that fits into the rear valve cover is the pcv valve. I didn't pull/ twist it  with to much force. It moves a little, but not much. Do you know if there is anything more than a baffle on the inside of the valve cover?
Does the pcv valve just pull straight out?

I couldn't believe how much oil was pooled on the throttle body.
I don't hammer on the gas a lot.
The rear turbo was replaced a couple of months ago. The bearing/seal must have gone bad.
I saw oil all over the flex connection to the intake tubing and dripping off the oil return line. I wound up with a p0420 and had to pay to replace the rear cats. I couldn't buy the cats for less than they could replace them.

I'll try to get the car on jack stands and look around underneath the car after work.
It may not be until this weekend, but I'll try to clean out any intake piping. I will look for any pooling.

Thanks again SHOdded.

No hesitation this morning, seemed to run good.

 

[Cobra93]

I took a look at the TB after work today, only a bit of oil.

running inconsistent after work and some surging at part and full throttle.

I did notice this.
I don't know how long this has been broken.

 

[SHOdded]

the pcv valve comes separately and as an assembly. replace the assembly.
https://dz310nzuyimx0.cloudfront.net/strapr1/25b3d4efa6a6e2899ede3b619b88722d/5e5b4d5b892901154a72fa93ec1e3089.png
#9 i believe
https://parts.levittownfordparts.com/oem-parts/ford-vapor-canister-purge-valve-assembly-aa5z6a785f

you may even want to do the whole tsb
https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?msg=79067

is that cracked part from an engine mount bracket? replace mount/bracket assembly if so.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/rparts-sites/images/996a7fa078cc36c46d02f9af3bef918b/d9897303afc5249c7b75a1c273d8fedb.jpg
https://parts.levittownfordparts.com/v-2014-ford-taurus--sho--3-5l-v6-gas/engine--engine-and-trans-mounting

 

[Cobra93]

I did order a pcv valve from tasca.
I'll look at your links,
Thanks.
I have been searching for the mount all day. It may be just a bracket.
Thanks SHOdded.

I got my tune yesterday.
I wonder if I can use the log file by itself and maybe it'll show something.
It seems like the first time I floor it the boost is random as to when it will build, but after that it's normal.

I plan to get the car up on stands tomorrow or Sunday and go through the piping to clean it.

Thanks, for the links and help.

 

[Cobra93]

I didn't tell you, but I have 97,600 miles on the car.

I went through the intake piping on top of the engine after work today as well as the pcv system. The TB looked dryer then before.
I ran across a thread zsho had on checking the canister purge solenoid.
I'll try to check that on Sunday.

The PCV valve looks good as did all the lines, very little if any shine on the inside. I can't blow through the solenoid with it off the car. I thought I read it should have vacuum ,if it's mounted in the car and the engine is running and the electrical plug is disconnected. I don't remember.

Most of the cold side piping looked good, only a little shiny. The only spot I saw any oil was the connection just forward (front turbo side)of the BOV.

I removed the pipe connection off the front turbo. The impeller looks great. There was a bit of oil on the machined inlet. I assume the BOV venting back into the filtered air is where the oil came from.

I turned the impeller with my fingers. It didn't turn hard, but I assumed it would turn easier, like a fidget spinner.
I grabbed a hold of the shaft and I can feel some up/down/side to side play. It's no allot, but I would not think there should be any play. I check it against the new rear turbo on sunday. I'll also see if I can vacuum anything out of the CAC.

This is the kind of thing I keep finding from the dealer I went to.
The hose connection from the  BOV. So disappointing.

I'll also get the engine mount (bracket) ordered.

Thanks, let me know what you think.

 

[Cobra93]

I've been trying to sort this out in my head.
Does it make sense to you (IF the new turbos impeller spins more free by comparison) this could be the reason I never have boost building right away.
It's random when it comes on the first time, but fine after that.
Maybe it takes allot of flow to get it turning the first time.
After that it it remains spinning and boot comes on every time after the first "spool up" on the front turbo?

I don't know if this would throw any codes that I would see when scanning, I have no codes at present.

I hope to have more info tomorrow.

Thanks, Joe.

 

[SHOdded]

the purge valve should hold vacuum with it disconnected. you won't realize it with momentary tests like blowing through it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvLOLXf2HfE

if the impeller looks good, probably is good. not sure how it spins with engine not running/spun by hand. you can always change the oil feed tubes w filter baskets/gaskets (on both turbos) if concerned. the oil feed tubes are a known leak point on the turbos.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yeeugv6eEq27TP1vZ49RVXuFI2L6TqLR/view?usp=drive_link

yes it is entirely possible there has been oil starvation on that turbo and you are seeing the results in the slower impeller response. good catch there. assuming the turbos are identically matched otherwise.

watch for any irregularities along impeller blade edges that indicate impact from the airstream.

 

[Cobra93]

I took all the turbo piping off either friday or today. I found no significant amount of oil anywhere.
The bottom of the new (rear turbo) has some  dirty oil droplets on the bottom. I have no idea where it is coming from. I shot it down with brake cleaner and wiped it off. I'll check it again in a few days. The oil return line is new and clean. The discharge hose has a flex connection which was covered with oil. It was never cleaned when they did the turbo. I cleaned that with brake cleaner as well.

I did vacuum out the CAC. I might have got a teaspoon of fluid out.

I was not able to get to the last clamp on the inlet of the rear turbo. I was afraid I would not be able to get it back on without removing the rear cat. I assume i would need to replace the gaskets. I could order them and try again next weekend.

I did put the scope down the last elbow to the inlet and everything looks clean and dry, as well as the outlet to the CAC.
I want to feel if there is any play in the shaft on the new turbo, it would give me some direction.

The purge valve does sound like it's popping while the car is running and the line is disconnected. I will get a vacuum pump to test it properly.

I also watched a makeuloco video that shows the oil filter screens for the turbo.
I don't know which end of the line they are at. Engine side?

I also watched a video of a guy rebuilding a turbo for his f150, the channel was "evil fate industries" he said there should be no slop (side to side) and a search on the internet says there will be some play and the oil will fill the gap.
So I don't know which to believe is correct.

I'm having issue geting pics to my pc to post today or I show you more.

I'll keep working at it.
Thanks SHOdded.

 

[SHOdded]

not sure where the oil is coming from unless it is from the oil filter, engine oil pressure switch, etc. if  you don't see any oil elsewhere, i would clean it off and keep an eye. possibly ptu venting but the oil would have "that smell", an axle seal leak, or the front main cover (timing cover) leak.

as for turbo videos, ones specific to the ecoboost turbos of your style should be the pertinent ones. these are smaller turbos than normal to allow faster spoolup i imagine less room for "slop" as well. but idk.

not sure where the screens are on the oil feeds, but i would hope at the end closest to the turbo to provide max filtering. will have to see if i can find this info.

 

[Cobra93]

I'm not sure either. Ill watch it and try to check the bolts holding the halves together.
The only place that i could see a possible leak would be the break between the compressor/turbine side where the 4 or 5 bolts keep the center section together.
I doubt the turbo was built incorrectly.
This is a link to the video I was referring to.
Those/his truck turbosseem to be water cooled. Mine look like there is a plug
[youtube]tLobj6aNTxo[/youtube]

This fordtechmakuloco shows the screens you linked me to starting at 3:45 sec if the video doesn't start there.
[youtube]eHPSgqipk-E[/youtube]

I don't know if the truck version or year or what is different, but I only have 1 solenoid (cam phaser?) n each bank. Most of the videos seem to have 2 per bank?

Thanks, SHOdded.  I may not have much of anything until this weekend.

 

[SHOdded]

yes the f150 and sho engines are different variants. the sho engine is based on the transverse 3.5 cyclone engine and retains the vct configuration. the f150 is a longitudinal ti-vct engine thus the 2 solenoids per bank. the sho engine was never updated in this regard.

 

[Cobra93]

I have the pcv valve, vacuum pump and the gaskets
I replaced the pcv valve (numbers match), I think the old one is okay, but...

I checked the canister purge valve. It holds 30 psi for more than a minute.
Any more and the connection blows apart.

The throttle body and rear turbo are completely dry, I will continue to keep an eye on the rear turbo.

I found a video "legit street cars". He bought an sho at auction and is doing a Gearhead tune/intercooler and a PPE exhaust. He checks his turbo and states a small amount of movement is okay. I don't know for sure, but he seems knowledgeable.
Start at 14:34 if the video doesn't.
[youtube]96N6zyelpQU[/youtube]

I may not check the rear turbo as the video looks worse than the small amount of play I have in my 97,000 mi front turbo.

So far things look pretty good to me.
I'm a bit afraid of what I'll see if I put the bore scope down the map sensor hole to look at the intake valves. I'm not sure if it'll fit.

If the timing advance is correct (~19° @ WOT, Ive only put 93 octane in the car), I'm getting 10 psi of pressure from the turbos, the hpfp is @ 2,400 psi and I have no misfires (plugs/coils/injectors are okay) I'm not sure why the car is so slow.
I also still have the random time I see boost the first time I go WOT.
The times I got from torque were with a full tank of gas.

I'm still working on the engine mount.

What else should I check next?
Thanks, SHOdded.

 

[SHOdded]

everything looks good except maybe for fuel pressure, assuming max is truly commanded. at this point it seems like an intermittent problem since it is only on the first pull.

i believe in 2013 the max hpfp pressure was raised to 3000 psi. 2400 is correct for 2010-2012 MYs.

would log both fuel pump duty cycle as well as fuel pressures from idle to wot to idle. see if you spot a difference between pull 1 and any run thereafter.

could be as simple as a fuel pump control module, or not.