New to meth spray.. Do i spray more? (datalog no temp drop on 30/70 spray)

[TopherSho]

So this is run #1,  first test. 

I idled it in my test spot with the AC on until it hit 150f,  then turn on the logger and floored it. 

This is with the #3 nozzle that ships with the SNOW-1 kit.  It is Still set to factory pressure,  and factory 'on' setting (10 pounds boost).

Temps drop slowly,  but not as dramatically as I expected or have seen in other logs. in fact it seems to more or less just barley dent them..  there is a #5 nozzle still in the box, do I just switch it up and try again? 

Secondly .. how do i intemperate the STFT logs?  when people mention -15 or -20 do they refer to the reading being .85  or .80?

Opinions?

Thank you for your input in advance ..

Edit .. nozzle 1 is 175ml.  Nozzle 2 is 375ml.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

So this is run #1,  first test. 

I idled it in my test spot with the AC on until it hit 150f,  then turn on the logger and floored it. 

This is with the #3 nozzle that ships with the SNOW-1 kit.  It is Still set to factory pressure,  and factory 'on' setting (10 pounds boost).

Temps drop slowly,  but not as dramatically as I expected or have seen in other logs. in fact it seems to more or less just barley dent them..  there is a #5 nozzle still in the box, do I just switch it up and try again? 

Secondly .. how do i intemperate the STFT logs?  when people mention -15 or -20 do they refer to the reading being .85  or .80?

Opinions?

Thank you for your input in advance ..

Edit .. nozzle 1 is 175ml.  Nozzle 2 is 375ml.

Is this on your 92 tune?

 

[TopherSho]

So this is run #1,  first test. 

I idled it in my test spot with the AC on until it hit 150f,  then turn on the logger and floored it. 

This is with the #3 nozzle that ships with the SNOW-1 kit.  It is Still set to factory pressure,  and factory 'on' setting (10 pounds boost).

Temps drop slowly,  but not as dramatically as I expected or have seen in other logs. in fact it seems to more or less just barley dent them..  there is a #5 nozzle still in the box, do I just switch it up and try again? 

Secondly .. how do i intemperate the STFT logs?  when people mention -15 or -20 do they refer to the reading being .85  or .80?

Opinions?

Thank you for your input in advance ..

Edit .. nozzle 1 is 175ml.  Nozzle 2 is 375ml.

Is this on your 92 tune?

Yes. 

I switched to the #5 nozzle ... going to test a bit. 

 

[TopherSho]

So I switched to nozzle 5, drove it around but was unable to do a real testing. 

It seemed to help, I can see a more pronounced drop when giving it a hard boot.

I will need to do a full run tomorrow letting it warm back up to 150f in the iat2 ..

 

[TopherSho]

So this is run #1,  first test. 

I idled it in my test spot with the AC on until it hit 150f,  then turn on the logger and floored it. 

This is with the #3 nozzle that ships with the SNOW-1 kit.  It is Still set to factory pressure,  and factory 'on' setting (10 pounds boost).

Temps drop slowly,  but not as dramatically as I expected or have seen in other logs. in fact it seems to more or less just barley dent them..  there is a #5 nozzle still in the box, do I just switch it up and try again? 

Secondly .. how do i intemperate the STFT logs?  when people mention -15 or -20 do they refer to the reading being .85  or .80?

Opinions?

Thank you for your input in advance ..

Edit .. nozzle 1 is 175ml.  Nozzle 2 is 375ml.

I threw a email at SNOW and asked if the 175ml nozzle is to small for a 340whp/440wtq Mustang dyno build.

 

[polskifacet]

I'm getting a 20 - 30 degree drop. This heavily depends on how much heat soak you have. From 160 you should see a 40 degree temp drop. From 130 you may only see a 20 degree temp drop as the fluid you are spraying is the same as the ambient temp. If you want to have supercooled iat2 you need to lower the temp of the fluid for the track or known episodes of terrorizing the streets lol. You would need to throw "clean" ice cubes in your tank.

 

[TopherSho]

I'm getting a 20 - 30 degree drop. This heavily depends on how much heat soak you have. From 160 you should see a 40 degree temp drop. From 130 you may only see a 20 degree temp drop as the fluid you are spraying is the same as the ambient temp. If you want to have supercooled iat2 you need to lower the temp of the fluid for the track or known episodes of terrorizing the streets lol. You would need to throw "clean" ice cubes in your tank.

Maybe I missed this .. but Snow replied saying the spray needs *to be directly on they IAT2 sensor*. I am a bit annoyed at this as the instructions were clear to place it a few inches away from the throttle blade..  which in itself is another 8+ inches from the IAT2 which is another 12 inches from the valves.  had i known the spray needs to wet the sensor I would have opted to drill and tap the damn intake about 4 inches in front of the IAT2\MAP sensor.

wth .. in the SHO config this will never achieve the cooling ''effect'' of drowning the IAT2 sensor which seems a bit of a hack to me.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Snow Performance Tech [mailto:tech@snowperformance.net]
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 8:08 AM
To: Chris  <cbeeck@######.com>
Subject: [EXT] Re: Nozzle choices for my tuned SHO.. Not seeing temp drops as expected.

Hey Chris,

Thanks for reaching out! We should be able to take out some more heat using the #5 nozzles and spraying slightly sooner in the boost curve.

Also, we need to make sure we are spraying directly over the iat sensor.

Please let us know if we can answer any further questions!

Thanks,
-------------------------------------------------------------------=-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[lamrith]

I never installed my kit, but everyone seems to install right before the TB and see huge benefits, so You have it installed in the correct place for our application.

Maybe you want to think about having it come on a bit sooner?  8psi, 6psi?  The pro's here should chime in with more information.  I know I see 0-5psi daily driving, so on mine I had planned to have it start in the 7psi range.

Also from everything I read here and elsewhere, with meth you will not see full (or even 1/2) benefit without a tune to it, it is more than just cooling charge, but needs to be tuned for.  I do not even think you are supposed to push meth much if you are not tuned for it?

You got this Toph, hopefully some of the methheads will chime in shortly and help you get dialed in.

 

[TopherSho]

I never installed my kit, but everyone seems to install right before the TB and see huge benefits, so You have it installed in the correct place for our application.

Maybe you want to think about having it come on a bit sooner?  8psi, 6psi?  The pro's here should chime in with more information.  I know I see 0-5psi daily driving, so on mine I had planned to have it start in the 7psi range.

You got this Toph, hopefully some of the methheads will chime in shortly and help you get dialed in.

That is what Snow implied,  that I should drop the onset to 7 pounds.. right after they said to WET the frigging IAT sensor.  i will give the screw a full turn counter-clockwise and retest with the #5 Nozzle. 

But from the specs of SBS, POL .. i think i may need to go up one more nozzle.  I am going to check the PUMP pressure after SNOW gets back to me.  I asked them how to set the pump to 275-psi wich it should be from the factory.

Also from everything I read here and elsewhere, with meth you will not see full (or even 1/2) benefit without a tune to it, it is more than just cooling charge, but needs to be tuned for.  I do not even think you are supposed to push meth much if you are not tuned for it?

Yeah this is purely for temps on the track.  I will probably run a little meth for a super tiny octane bump and more important keep crap from growing in my lines and in my tank.  but my intent is 1.5 quarts of 30/70 and 1.5 quarts DI H20...

I will update with more test results today.  I will make a 'HOT' run like yesterday.  hopefully we will see better results.

I do know that 3 major things do come into play preventing the same magic seen by others.

-Ambient humidity
-Ambient temps
-spray temps

Nothing i can do about humidity,  that is physics.  only so much spray will evaporate so I need to pay real close attention to misfires and keep my water volumes in the safe range while getting better temps

Ambient temps will be the lowest i can go, for PIR raceway that's 105-110 degrees,  I was hoping to see (last night) my temps drop from 150f in the IAT2 to at least 100f (it was 80ish at time of test).  But instead it only dropped to 130ish after the initial launch cooling occurred without the meth light on.  if I can get the IAT2 to +10f of the outside/iat2 launch temps i will consider it a success since that would drop the 160IATs i saw last trip by 40f+ if i can get to 110ish IAT. 

Spray temps for me are also out of my control now, mounted in the trunk the line is 20' long.  there no amount of cooling that will keep the fluid chilled that far under the car.

 

[lamrith]

I would not change 2 things at once (turn on adjustment and switch to 5#)  The #1 rule in testing is to only change one parameter at a time, otherwise you have no idea which is doing what and could even have changed compound and cause a problem.  Or are you currently running the 5#?

Any reason you are not just going for the std 50meth/50water mix?  That may net you the biggest benefit.  Water injection helps, but I think the meth atomizing nets an even bigger benefit due to higher octane which will also combat detonation.  Sort of a 1 - 2 punch.  Some drop in temps plus increase in octane both countering detonation so your tuner can dial up the timing...?  Least that is how I have understood the goals behind meth injection...

 

[TopherSho]

I would not change 2 things at once (turn on adjustment and switch to 5#)  Or are you currently running the 5#?

Yup im running #5 as of last night.  saw improvement.. but could not do a real test/run.  You are right,  I am going to leave the pump alone.  I just want to make sure it is set as expected from the factory. 

Any reason you are not just going for the std 50meth/50water mix?  That may net you the biggest benefit.  Water injection helps, but I think the meth atomizing nets an even bigger benefit due to higher octane which will also combat detonation.  Sort of a 1 - 2 punch.  Some drop in temps plus increase in octane both countering detonation so your tuner can dial up the timing...?  Least that is how I have understood the goals behind meth injection...

In this case I do not have any plans on making the car dependent on meth for racing. On the PIR dragstrip I saw 160-170f iat2 temps (105f on the car display) at launch.. I want just use the install to knock 50f off the sensor and air charge.  It bugs me to see my timing in the toilet and leave so much potential power laying on the table because it took 20 minutes of idling to get up to the line to race..

It seems the water is the better of the two for removing temps from the air charge,  meth is good but not as equatable.  Since I am not tuning for meth my goal is to regain back my potential 18-20 degrees of spark in super hot temperatures across the whole race, instead of seeing my spark drop into the low-teens and even single digits on super hot days.

 

[polskifacet]

I'm running 200ml @ 40 psi nozzle (actually running ~275 psi so it comes out to 500ml a minute). 7.5 minutes of spray per gallon. AJP hasn't chimed in on what he sees in my spray logs so not sure if this is a good amount ... yet.

 

[TopherSho]

I'm running 200ml @ 40 psi nozzle (actually running ~275 psi so it comes out to 500ml a minute). 7.5 minutes of spray per gallon. AJP hasn't chimed in on what he sees in my spray logs so not sure if this is a good amount ... yet.

Hmm care to share the math?  375ml at a default of 275psi?

Also how do you interpret the STFT Llogs?

 

[TopherSho]

Then there is this.  https://www.snowperformance.net/category-s/191.htm

hmmm should have never even installed the 175 #3 nozzle   guess that's on me.  still need to do real testing later.

 

[polskifacet]

Then there is this.  https://www.snowperformance.net/category-s/191.htm

hmmm should have never even installed the 175 #3 nozzle   guess that's on me.  still need to do real testing later.

175 ml is very close to my 200 ml. I did a real test by seeing how long it takes the pump to suck up 500ml of water, which was 1 minute.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

I'm running 200ml @ 40 psi nozzle (actually running ~275 psi so it comes out to 500ml a minute). 7.5 minutes of spray per gallon. AJP hasn't chimed in on what he sees in my spray logs so not sure if this is a good amount ... yet.

Hmm care to share the math?  375ml at a default of 275psi?

Also how do you interpret the STFT Llogs?

IIRC when I glanced your LTFT was at 1 and stft was pulling about 10% over the pull

 

[TopherSho]

175 ml is very close to my 200 ml. I did a real test by seeing how long it takes the pump to suck up 500ml of water, which was 1 minute.

Got it,  so not formula per say but a bench test.  I should likely do this as well.  Pushing fluid through 20' of hose has to have a parasitic impact..

I do think i am getting better results with the 375.. i need to switch to 50% more water and test again after i do a real heat up and run hopefully today if my test road is abandoned.

Ultimately i need to track it.  Track heat with repeated runs is VASTLY different .. i may see better results there than idling on the side of the road up to 150f IAT2 and dashing down the road.

well have to see.... but I am starting to think this *might* have been a incorrect purchase.  I probably should have had Brad add 5 points of global timing and just run E30 on race days ... well see.

 

[TopherSho]

I'm running 200ml @ 40 psi nozzle (actually running ~275 psi so it comes out to 500ml a minute). 7.5 minutes of spray per gallon. AJP hasn't chimed in on what he sees in my spray logs so not sure if this is a good amount ... yet.

Hmm care to share the math?  375ml at a default of 275psi?

Also how do you interpret the STFT Llogs?

IIRC when I glanced your LTFT was at 1 and stft was pulling about 10% over the pull

So to interpret .. a .9 reading in the STFT is in fact what others call -10 ?  I assumed so but need validation on that understanding.

 

[TopherSho]

the 375ml nozzle produced much better results. 

Now to drop it 2 pounds for the onset ... then one more test.  After that only the track will determine the true benefit of offsetting PIR's 170f pavement radiating upward in the line up lanes.

Oh yeah love the spark bumping up to 21 and holding in the high rpm range.  Cant wait to test with 15/85 and see if that will go any higher.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

I'm running 200ml @ 40 psi nozzle (actually running ~275 psi so it comes out to 500ml a minute). 7.5 minutes of spray per gallon. AJP hasn't chimed in on what he sees in my spray logs so not sure if this is a good amount ... yet.

Hmm care to share the math?  375ml at a default of 275psi?

Also how do you interpret the STFT Llogs?

IIRC when I glanced your LTFT was at 1 and stft was pulling about 10% over the pull

So to interpret .. a .9 reading in the STFT is in fact what others call -10 ?  I assumed so but need validation on that understanding.

This is correct ... ideally you want your STFT to read 1 in a normal application which Meth is not but understanding how it works will give you an idea of how much meth your are spraying. If you see a reading of .95 then your car is technically pulling 5% fuel to keep the demanded AFR. Which could also be read as -5% depending on the program collecting the data... so .90 would be -10% or pulling 10% fuel to maintain AFR.... and vice versa if you are adding fuel... 1.05 would be adding 5% fuel to maintain AFR and could be interpreted as +5%...

Technically you need to account for the LTFT as well... so you add your LTFT and STFT to get an overall picture of how the car is being fueled...

LTFT of 1.03 and a short term fuel trim of .95 means that your car is technically pulling 2% fuel to achieve demanded AFR...make sense?


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