Put the pig on a lift.... crap..

[StealBlueSHO]

After getting this fat pig of a car up onto a lift to give it solid look over before track season opens looks like I need to decide what to do with the turbos....

I knew the front one was leaking... didn’t realize the back one was leaking as well...

Plan was to just pick up a stocker for the front, however if I am pulling both turbos I might as well get something worth while... ATPs or the CHRA kit from EPP....

Need to decide what to do...

 

[ajpturbo]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But I thought the upgraded wheels were only a slight upgrade due to the fact that they are billet and a slightly more efficient design which moves air better and a bit more but were close in size to the stockers.

BUt the ATP's actually had a better designed wheel over stock AND were actually larger because the housings are machined over stock and I thought that is where the real power is because the wheels are bigger....Please correct me if you know better I just didn't think you could fit larger wheels in the stock housing due to tolerances.

 

[J-Will]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But I thought the upgraded wheels were only a slight upgrade due to the fact that they are billet and a slightly more efficient design which moves air better and a bit more but were close in size to the stockers.

BUt the ATP's actually had a better designed wheel over stock AND were actually larger because the housings are machined over stock and I thought that is where the real power is because the wheels are bigger....Please correct me if you know better I just didn't think you could fit larger wheels in the stock housing due to tolerances.

I think you're right. But he's saying that if he has to rebuild the stockers then he'd use upgraded parts. Or go ATP full upgraded turbos.

Seems logical to me. I feel like I'd be in the same predicament when I opt for downpipes- while I'm that close to the turbos may as well pull those and upgrade or replace. And of course that means more $$$$.

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[StealBlueSHO]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But I thought the upgraded wheels were only a slight upgrade due to the fact that they are billet and a slightly more efficient design which moves air better and a bit more but were close in size to the stockers.

BUt the ATP's actually had a better designed wheel over stock AND were actually larger because the housings are machined over stock and I thought that is where the real power is because the wheels are bigger....Please correct me if you know better I just didn't think you could fit larger wheels in the stock housing due to tolerances.

I think you're right. But he's saying that if he has to rebuild the stockers then he'd use upgraded parts. Or go ATP full upgraded turbos.

Seems logical to me. I feel like I'd be in the same predicament when I opt for downpipes- while I'm that close to the turbos may as well pull those and upgrade or replace. And of course that means more $$$$.

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Brad you are 100% correct. But the CHRA’s are $1K cheaper. I am not sure how much more money I want to invest into this platform. If I can save a few buck, drop in something that is more efficient, see a bit of gain, then that might be the way to go. And I believe I have read that guys that are dropping ATPs into the car without a built motor are throwing rods. If I go that route I would want it dyno tuned to really dial it in... but that’s more money...

I have a standing offer at a dealer who is willing to give me $12K for the car as is, so I am considering that as well... the new mustang gt’s are really nice..

Who knows...this platform is starting to frustrate me only because I am at a wall with power...

 

[SHOdded]

At a wall with TRACTION, LOL.  Sorry to hear both turbos are kaput.  I would go ATPs, but the CHRAs are still a good option (68_GT has them in his).  Where have you heard ATP turbos causing engine issues?  If you do not adjust boost on the tune, ie run the same boost as with stockers, OF COURSE you are asking for trouble.  I would take those reports with a heavy dose of salt.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

I am gonna do some more investigating.. I need to check the shaft play and fins... I’m curious if it’s an issue with the oil return lines not draining correctly or possible PCV issue.. I have no symptoms of lost boost, high wastegate duty cycles, etc... car still pulls like a freight train....

 

[pmezo33]

How bad is the leak?  If it's a small external leak, just keep driving on them assuming they're performing correctly and there's no internal leaking.  You can replace them if you want, but you really don't have to.  And a small external leak doesn't mean they're about to die. 

 

[StealBlueSHO]

How bad is the leak?  If it's a small external leak, just keep driving on them assuming they're performing correctly and there's no internal leaking.  You can replace them if you want, but you really don't have to.  And a small external leak doesn't mean they're about to die.

Pretty significant. Enough to be dripping and not just staining.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Interestingly enough I am not getting any burnt oil out the tail pipes.

 

[pmezo33]

How bad is the leak?  If it's a small external leak, just keep driving on them assuming they're performing correctly and there's no internal leaking.  You can replace them if you want, but you really don't have to.  And a small external leak doesn't mean they're about to die.

Pretty significant. Enough to be dripping and not just staining.

Dripping puddles on the ground or just small unburnt leaks around the turbo housing?

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Un-burnt drips hanging from the housing... Oil residue on the belly pan. On the lift you can easily see all the oil caked around the turbo with a drip at the lowest part of the housing. This is for the rear turbo.

Front turbo is more just residue but you can tell oil is dripping into the down pipe.

 

[pmezo33]

Un-burnt drips hanging from the housing... Oil residue on the belly pan. On the lift you can easily see all the oil caked around the turbo with a drip at the lowest part of the housing. This is for the rear turbo.

Front turbo is more just residue but you can tell oil is dripping into the down pipe.

Pull the air tubing hoses off the turbo and check for shaft play.  If everything is nice and tight and you're not burning anything out of the exhaust, your turbos aren't dead or even dying.

I've had the same exact leak as you and have battled the same oil leaks on both of my turbos for about the last 100k miles or so.  Same kind of leak.  Nothing on the ground, but visible and some burnt around the turbo housing and a little on the exhaust, but not much.  I've replace the feed lines and the oil return lines and the leak always comes back on both turbos. 

It's been about 100k miles of this with no performance issues and still driving on them without issue.  Never had to add any oil between oil changes once.  Level stays fine and the car drives like it should.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Un-burnt drips hanging from the housing... Oil residue on the belly pan. On the lift you can easily see all the oil caked around the turbo with a drip at the lowest part of the housing. This is for the rear turbo.

Front turbo is more just residue but you can tell oil is dripping into the down pipe.

Pull the air tubing hoses off the turbo and check for shaft play.  If everything is nice and tight and your not burning anything out of the exhaust, you're turbos aren't dead or even dying.

I've had the same exact leak as you and have battled the same oil leaks on both of my turbos for about the last 100k miles or so.  Same kind of leak.  Nothing on the ground, but visible and some burnt around the turbo housing and a little on the exhaust, but not much.  I've replace the feed lines and the oil return lines and the leak always comes back on both turbos. 

It's been about 100k miles of this with no performance issues and still driving on them without issue.  Never had to add any oil between oil changes once.  Level stays fine and the car drives like it should.

Awesome, thanks for the info! I have replaced the feed lines 3 times now due to oil leaks. And same thing, they just keep coming back.. this is just a bit more oil than I am used to seeing lol....

I need to check for shaft play, I have been hammering this car at the track this past year...

 

[pmezo33]

I've just grown to accept the leaks.  I don't feel like pulling the turbos off and spending $1200 on new ones if i don't have to.  I'll replace them when there's performance issues and they actually need to be replaced.  That's me.

Outside the smell of burnt oil every so often, for about 2 seconds, with the heat on, in extremely cold weather, there are no symptoms.  Changing the turbos will probably get rid of the leak since i've done everything else, but i can deal with it.

 

[markssho]

Mine have been like that for years. Guess nothing to worry with.

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[StealBlueSHO]

Well... LMS won’t remote tune ATPs... damn...


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[ajpturbo]

Hey just curious. Why are you so adamant about having a "dyno" tune for ATP turbos....I think you can have a really good tune without that. In fact with all the logging you do I think you get a better tune doing it remotely because you get much more data analysis for the money...I"ve said this before but on a dyno a lot of your time and money are sucked up flashing tunes and making runs...When you do it remotely the customer does a lot of the work which means more time from the tuner can be spent looking at data.

Doing Cams I think is where dyno tuning is beneficial because you can see results that you can't always feel.

If I met you at a dyno shop I would have so much more time invested in it and also being able to find the time that we are both free and a time the dyno shop is available would be near impossible.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Hey just curious. Why are you so adamant about having a "dyno" tune for ATP turbos....I think you can have a really good tune without that. In fact with all the logging you do I think you get a better tune doing it remotely because you get much more data analysis for the money...I"ve said this before but on a dyno a lot of your time and money are sucked up flashing tunes and making runs...When you do it remotely the customer does a lot of the work which means more time from the tuner can be spent looking at data.

Doing Cams I think is where dyno tuning is beneficial because you can see results that you can't always feel.

If I met you at a dyno shop I would have so much more time invested in it and also being able to find the time that we are both free and a time the dyno shop is available would be near impossible.

Honestly it is because without knowing how much power I am putting down I have no idea if the tune is safe. We have plenty of data points for the stockers to get an idea on how much power you are developing at a given psi/spark combination.

With the ATPs we are only guessing by a large margin.  I really don’t want to blow the motor/trans/PTU/RDU by guessing at how much power I am developing based on logs. I can accept a blown component when due diligence has been done to make sure I am not pushing power past what they can handle. At that point it’s one of those things was gonna happen regardless...I would be really unhappy if I blew something because I didn’t do the leg work to make sure I wasn’t pushing the components past what they can handle and blew something out of ignorance.

Every car is a bit different, mine tends to be more so with the SCT platform.

Its risk reward right? Do I take the risk in saving money by not dyno tuning that major of a change with the reward being I need to drop more cash on a blown motor or trans? Or do I play it safe?

You can disagree and I expect you too... I believe you are tuning Irondoors ATPs, has he dyno’d his setup to know much power he is developing?

12.5 psi on the stockers is much less air than 12.5 psi on the ATPs I would gather...






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[ajpturbo]

Yes all true but from what I know, the ATP's are only a few millimeters larger. I know stock turbos can make more than 400whp when pushed but let's say the efficient power is 400whp for the stockers then I'd be surprised if the ATP's would be more than 450-475 and I feel I'm being generous with that number.

I just don't see them being world's different with having wheels that are only 2mm different or even up to about 4mm.

Also I think you can make the argument that the power could be safer and better used...We could control tq in the midrange with less spark and boost but because the top end and airflow is better the ATP's would maintain more average torque and that is where the HP would come from...So essentially you would get more HP from less torque because you carry it better.

I would run the ATP's at 12-14 psi and see how it feels then add if you want.

 

[bpd1151]

Yes all true but from what I know, the ATP's are only a few millimeters larger. I know stock turbos can make more than 400whp when pushed but let's say the efficient power is 400whp for the stockers then I'd be surprised if the ATP's would be more than 450-475 and I feel I'm being generous with that number.

I just don't see them being world's different with having wheels that are only 2mm different or even up to about 4mm.

Oh Bradley.......*smh*...... the ATP's are larger than you know there sweet cheeks, and they're rated for more than you believe pumpkin.

Product info located here:

https://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-SHO-001&Category_Code=35V6TRAN

Side note, looks like ATP has some interesting products coming for the 2.3L EB that are pending release. How exciting!

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