Tuning for E85

bigmoneycloser

New member
LMS just announced on their Facebook page that they will now be tuning for various ethanol blends in the 2011+ mustangs with their tuner..
And they note the same will be coming soon for other vehicles...

Good news for guys running ethanol..



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From all the back n forth between LMS and 4DR I doubt it will include the 3.5 EB , but then again maybe there preparing to eat Crow .
 
Here's the LMS FB post:

"Run E85 in your 2011+ Ford Mustang and want a better solution for tuning around different ethanol content or when moving back to gasoline? Livernois Motorsports & Engineering has heard your requests and has added even more capability to our popular Split Personality tuning solution. Not only can it provide nitrous specific, or race gas specific tunes at the flip of the switch, We have now added the capability to support E85 tuning with it.

http://youtu.be/OQewyrbOfnU

Check out the product here:
http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/products/AIW-MyCal-Split-Personality-Tuner.html

Don't forget to check back for support on other vehicles coming soon."

What cars other than this… dunno … they say check back.  Clearly they have heard the end user though and are moving to accommodate.

Mike gets his due in the video where the pre & post dyno curves show 90HP  and 60+ ft/lb gain with E85 in the GT500… and nice smooth dyno curves… hope for all the E85 fans that the transfers 3.5 EB series engines are next!
 
Quote from prior post discussing E85 blends ....... " Under no circumstances can we recommend using this in an ecoboost application " .



" I don't understand why any reputable person or shop can recommend mixing a blend with the Ecoboost considering the current fuel delivery situation  "


[/quote]author=Livernois Motorsports link=topic=2247.msg32961#msg32961 date=1394641708]
4DRHTRD said:
Let's take a look at some things:
1. We're suggesting an E85 mix with 91 octane or if you have it 93 or heck if you want 100 octane but E85 and 91 mixing.
2. We all know that stock these cars can't run 100% E85, you're actually going to run E30 mix (12 91 octane and 4 E85 actually is E29 - almost 95 octane)
3. These aren't race cars, I don't know why you're referring to them but I do have a 600HP supercharged V8 and previously twin turbo Ecoboost V6 that run on straight E85 from the pump with no issues for long term as well as almost every high HP car around here in Phoenix. Geoff from Full-Race's own Evo makes 4XX HP on 91 and 7XX HP on E85. It works and works well, the car is also his semi-DD.
4. E85 is a great fuel for FI and it's proven on many platforms, pretty much any FI car out there makes more horsepower reliably on E85.
5. What does a flex-fuel  car not having to require 91 octane have anything to do with this conversation? The Ecoboost is rated to run on 87 octane as well, should you in my opinion, heck no but can you, sure.
6. E85 has been tested to be good for about a 6 month sitting scenario, here in AZ we don't have the water issues you guys might have back east with the winter cold etc.

Stop saying you're better than everyone else, it's BS.
guess we will just continue to do things the right way,
You have what you feel is the correct way to approach tuning, which includes only providing a generic canned tune for all customers unless they come for a dyno tune. There are no tune iterations based on log feedback from your customers so you want to stay very safe in your established parameters (I call it a box) that you want to provide for people. If people are outside of those parameters (E85, non-Livernois meth kit, etc etc) you don't want to apply your canned tune to their vehicle.
Other tuners and owners of these vehicles want to do things you don't want to have your tunes applied to, this is fine. Stating that E85 isn't a viable fuel to mix or run is not, it's a proven fuel you just decide not to use it. Heck even Ford used it as a way to get additional octane with a bi-fuel test they did.
How many cars have you tuned recently in your own facility with E85? Have you experimented with it recently? If you're not using it and you won't support it then how can you be an expert on it?
You don't have a leg to stand on as far as background usage, tuning and daily testing just what was relevant about 10+ years ago.
Anybody who has owned an FI car outside of these cars knows it's valid and knows that all the fast/high HP cars run E85 if they have it available.
It's just too bad you guys can't use your incredible resources to provide the additional DI pump and lift pump mods to allow for a plug and play fuel system to support big HP on either gas or E85. Why not work on that instead of disputing what most of us know works and works well.

Mike,

We are not using an opinion that pump grade E85 inferior to gasoline, an OEM Manufacturer (remember we are in detroit) went to one of the largest suppliers of E85 in Michigan and conducted testing. They shared the results and the octane is inferior to 93 OCT gasoline. Period. Our knowledge and respectfully yours is not superior to the OEM. I don't know what else to say. Is it getting better yes, when another round of tests are done and we feel its superior to gasoline we will recommend it. But under no circumstances can we recommend this to any Ecoboost platform to date. For this reason and more importantly see below....Remember I said to date.

Lets just say that pump grade E85 is great fuel (we can agree to disagree).

Can we agree that the current fuel system on the Ecoboost is on the edge? If we can't agree I will be more than happy to give you years of data showing DI fuel pressure problems with the current system.

With a blend of E30 fuel (so 70% gasoline and 30% Ethanol) roughly a bit less ethanol than your recommending you will need 15% or more fuel than gasoline. There is also a few other brake specific problems when you add in turbocharging that I won't get into.

I don't understand why any reputable person or shop can recommend mixing a blend with the Ecoboost considering the current fuel delivery situation.

Dan Millen
[/quote]
 
Yea… I think everyone remembers… And we all change our minds from time to time… IMHO no need to stir it all up again...the news however is this LMS announcement below.

What cars other than this… dunno … they say check back.  Clearly they have heard the end user now and are moving to accommodate.

As noted before, Mike gets his due in the video where the pre & post dyno curves show 90HP  and 60+ ft/lb gain with E85 in the GT500… and nice smooth dyno curves… hope for all the E85 fans that the transverse 3.5 EB series engines are next!


"Run E85 in your 2011+ Ford Mustang and want a better solution for tuning around different ethanol content or when moving back to gasoline? Livernois Motorsports & Engineering has heard your requests and has added even more capability to our popular Split Personality tuning solution. Not only can it provide nitrous specific, or race gas specific tunes at the flip of the switch, We have now added the capability to support E85 tuning with it.

http://youtu.be/OQewyrbOfnU

Check out the product here:
http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/products/AIW-MyCal-Split-Personality-Tuner.html

Don't forget to check back for support on other vehicles coming soon."
 
I knew they'd fold eventually, with how overwhelmingly popular tuning with E has become.
Competitively speaking, as a business, with ethanol's factually established benefits, it'd be foolish not to.

But, how is the Mustang's fueling?
It seemed to me LMSs main grunt with tuning for E on the 3.5 EB was lack of fueling capacity...

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@ groceries

probably a tone easier to upgrade the Mustang / GT500 fuel system tio support E85 than any ecoboost vehicles.
 
68_GT said:
4DRHTRD said:
I doubt they'll support it as is, maybe once DI pumps are available.

this and the larger capacity DI injectors ?!
I'd guess the same as all tuners do for folks without modded injectors or fuel pumps.... 99%+ of us.  If this isn't the way for now, why does anyone do it... FoMoCoSHO is having success... No one tuning now for the mods mentioned above.
 
There's a ton to be learned from the Mazdaspeed enthusiast community. As much as many refuse to believe, the Mazda MZR is grandfather to Ford's EB series of engines.
I think many limitations of DI were fully realized by the MSF community before many others.

I've seen FoMoCoSHO and others mention the added capacity of some of the fueling components on 13+ EBs. If this is indeed factual, I don't think the limitations of 13+ OE components have been established. Tuning support would greatly assist in this, with 13+ 3.5l EBs.
There's not a lot of wiggle room in regards to pulse width with DI injectors, because of shortened engine cycle event timing windows, compared to PI.
So, it truly takes more volume. I think the chances of seeing plug and play, higher cc replacement injectors on the EB is like it was on the MZR - slim to none.

There's headway with meth injection, as we know, but short of actual replacement components, such as the HPFP and injectors, there's only so far you can go.
A permanent fixture of high HP Mazdaspeeds in a fifth port injector.
IIRC, 4DR has already dappled in this area.

What it takes is folks who are willing to push the envelope, in addition to solid tuning solutions and support.

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I learned everything from the MSF for my aux fuel system, DI setups etc. I also had a speed 6, great platform to learn on for DI.
 
IHeartGroceries said:
There's a ton to be learned from the Mazdaspeed enthusiast community. As much as many refuse to believe, the Mazda MZR is grandfather to Ford's EB series of engines.
I think many limitations of DI were fully realized by the MSF community before many others.

I've seen FoMoCoSHO and others mention the added capacity of some of the fueling components on 13+ EBs. If this is indeed factual, I don't think the limitations of 13+ OE components have been established. Tuning support would greatly assist in this, with 13+ 3.5l EBs.
There's not a lot of wiggle room in regards to pulse width with DI injectors, because of shortened engine cycle event timing windows, compared to PI.
So, it truly takes more volume. I think the chances of seeing plug and play, higher cc replacement injectors on the EB is like it was on the MZR - slim to none.

There's headway with meth injection, as we know, but short of actual replacement components, such as the HPFP and injectors, there's only so far you can go.
A permanent fixture of high HP Mazdaspeeds in a fifth port injector.
IIRC, 4DR has already dappled in this area.

What it takes is folks who are willing to push the envelope, in addition to solid tuning solutions and support.

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IHeart ... You are factually incorrect incorect in two areas .

1  The 13+ 3.5 ecoboost enigne DOES have a beefed up improved fueling system over the older models . FoMoCoSHO ran  13.3 today .. no mods E85 at 25% . Try that in an older SHO ..
You CANNOT run blends in the  older models ... Period.
Info on this has been discussed on the F150 forums as well as other online sources .

2  The Deutschwerk's Injectors  Will for be available for sale this summer .
They are plug n play and will only require a revised tune , the full potential of there 25% greater  flow capabilites over OEM  will not be realized until the intank fuel pump and HPFP are replaced and or suplemented .

Again this information is readily available .... if you take the time to read it below ....

SwampRat said:
For those that are questioning the need for upgraded injectors for the 3.5 EB  this is an excerpt from the article in the link further below .

Sounds like pretty convincing data to me .


Any tuner will tell you that the more data they have on the parts in a particular setup, the better than can tune a car. Deatschwerks spent about a year developing and verifying injector calibration summaries for their entire modern muscle car product line. “When you purchase a set of our injectors, what comes with them–which, in many cases, tuners find more valuable–is the tuning data,” says Deatsch.

“All of our modern muscle injectors have plug-and-play tuning data to get set up in your ECU…You can go right to our website, go to the Resources tab, find the GM or Ford calibrations, pick your injector part number, download an Excel spreadsheet, and the copy and paste the injector data you need for tuning right into the ECU tables.”


http://www.streetlegaltv.com/features/pri-coverage/pri-2013-deatschwerks-new-gdi-injectors-and-calibration-summaries/


These injectors along with a modified fuel pump , or maybe unlocking the FRP through tuning as hinted at by FoMoCoSho is what is going to make things happen .
 
Factually incorrect?

Firstly, I didn't explicitly doubt that some of the 13+ fueling componentry is upgraded over previous m/y. I simply stated I've seen it mentioned on the forum.

Secondly, I'm not factually incorrect, because I stated a matter of opinion regarding aftermarket injector solutions. Furthermore, until it is fully available to consumers, it is unaccountable.
If there are some in development, that's fantastic.

There are two upstream areas in fuel delivery, which for most enthusiasts here, would need to be upgraded before any additional volume at the cylinders could be feasible.

If buying FoMoCo 13+ whole HPFP assemblies is the only option for pre-13 owners, that's a very costly option, before even factoring in the cost of injectors or in-tank pumps.

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My opinion is, that still won't go very far, and even with added volume on the low side, and added volume at the cylinders, the cam driven pump will still serve as a bottleneck.
It might work for some low blend E tuning on stock turbos (which supposedly don't have alot more breath anyway).

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IHeartGroceries said:
My opinion is, that still won't go very far, and even with added volume on the low side, and added volume at the cylinders, the cam driven pump will still serve as a bottleneck.
It might work for some low blend E tuning on stock turbos (which supposedly don't have alot more breath anyway).

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OK ... but I was disagreeing with your opinion .

The point is these parts are being developed for the fuel situation we have and although we may want in tank pumps or a supplemental system and an improved HPFP , the parts are being made .

It's when we have all three the juices get flowin .

Throw  ATP turbos in the mix and ........

To suggest that a product is not worth considering simply because it is not available for sale is what I dont understand .
Ford has a press release on the 2.7EB and everyone is all ears ....
 
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