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Tuning with HP Tuners???
- Thread starter Kacz
- Start date
askoncemore
New member
Nothing for the Flex... yet
I called them a few weeks ago.
I called them a few weeks ago.
I'm using HPTuners but they aren't very complete with Fords and especially the EcoBoost. For EcoBoost support, only the Taurus, F-150, and Mustang seem to be covered by HPTuners They only started support for Fords within the past 3+ years or so. I have the HPtuners Pro interface kit (the one with standalone datalogging capability) and would recommend just going with the Standard interface. I sent in requests to HPTuners for them to add a few missing tables on my 2014 SHO, but they have a busy schedule and the requests get thrown into a queue without an ETA.
The F-150 EcoBoost tuners have noticed that there were a lot of tables accessible in the 2015 engine calibration but not in the pre-2015 calibrations. These tables are also found in the 2015-up Mustang EcoBoost calibrations. These same tables seem to be missing in my 2014 Taurus SHO file. If I had access to a 2015 SHO, I could do a comparison - and I have a feeling that the 2015 might have these tables accessible in HPTuners. Namely, the throttle settings for Drive and Sport modes, and the shift maps for Drive and Sport modes. After some datalogging and experimentation, I know what to change in the Base/Drive shift map and don't really need to touch the Sport shift map mode. However, the Drive Modes are all missing on the 2014's electronic throttle settings, and that is one I would really really really want to access because the stock throttle mode in Drive feels like rubbish, while in Sport mode it feels infinitely better and more responsive.
I don't want to steer anyone wrong, but I'd say either go with a vendor like Unleashed Tuning - I've bought parts from Torrie as far back as probably 16-18 years ago and he's good people. Or get the SCT Pro Racer Package for the DIY route. But note that you'd have to buy the Pro Racer Package ($349), the X4 tuner ($400), and the file for your car ($100). The HPTuners Standard package for $500 would include the interface and 10 credits for whatever base manufacturer you choose (Ford, GM, or Dodge) - tuning one Ford would use up 2 credits - but HPTuners isn't very complete at the moment for Fords and especially for the EcoBoost.
Even though I've been using SCT Advantage with my Pro Racer Package for 13 years, I'd still have to spend the $399 for the X4 and $100 for the license file to tune my SHO.
The only reason I'm playing around with HPTuners is because I bought it for tuning my Cobalt SS Turbo. I installed the K&N short ram intake and it totally skewed the MAF transfer function resulting in unstable idle. I also bought the GM Stage 1 parts (3-bar MAP sensors, adapters, etc...) and made the necessary tuning changes rather than pay full price for the official GM calibration. It just so happened to work on my Mustang, and I used HPTuners to datalog and clean up the MAF transfer function using SCT Advantage (which I bought in 2003 to originally tune my Crown Vic).
The F-150 EcoBoost tuners have noticed that there were a lot of tables accessible in the 2015 engine calibration but not in the pre-2015 calibrations. These tables are also found in the 2015-up Mustang EcoBoost calibrations. These same tables seem to be missing in my 2014 Taurus SHO file. If I had access to a 2015 SHO, I could do a comparison - and I have a feeling that the 2015 might have these tables accessible in HPTuners. Namely, the throttle settings for Drive and Sport modes, and the shift maps for Drive and Sport modes. After some datalogging and experimentation, I know what to change in the Base/Drive shift map and don't really need to touch the Sport shift map mode. However, the Drive Modes are all missing on the 2014's electronic throttle settings, and that is one I would really really really want to access because the stock throttle mode in Drive feels like rubbish, while in Sport mode it feels infinitely better and more responsive.
I don't want to steer anyone wrong, but I'd say either go with a vendor like Unleashed Tuning - I've bought parts from Torrie as far back as probably 16-18 years ago and he's good people. Or get the SCT Pro Racer Package for the DIY route. But note that you'd have to buy the Pro Racer Package ($349), the X4 tuner ($400), and the file for your car ($100). The HPTuners Standard package for $500 would include the interface and 10 credits for whatever base manufacturer you choose (Ford, GM, or Dodge) - tuning one Ford would use up 2 credits - but HPTuners isn't very complete at the moment for Fords and especially for the EcoBoost.
Even though I've been using SCT Advantage with my Pro Racer Package for 13 years, I'd still have to spend the $399 for the X4 and $100 for the license file to tune my SHO.
The only reason I'm playing around with HPTuners is because I bought it for tuning my Cobalt SS Turbo. I installed the K&N short ram intake and it totally skewed the MAF transfer function resulting in unstable idle. I also bought the GM Stage 1 parts (3-bar MAP sensors, adapters, etc...) and made the necessary tuning changes rather than pay full price for the official GM calibration. It just so happened to work on my Mustang, and I used HPTuners to datalog and clean up the MAF transfer function using SCT Advantage (which I bought in 2003 to originally tune my Crown Vic).
The first picture is of the 2014 SHO, notice Drive Modes is completely missing. The second picture is what you'd see in a 2015-up EcoBoost (or even the TC-1791 for V8 engines) file in HPTuners. I just noticed the 2015-up file is missing the table for ETC Crank, which is found in the 2014 file.
I think you may be thinking about it the wrong way...sometimes things aren't missing but rather the ecu for different strategies does things differently....the items in a particular strategy are not dependent on model year or even ecu model...
My strategy doesnt have tables for drive modes but there is a pedal multiplier for sport mode....
Did you notice in the pic you posted that 100% pedal inputgives 100% pedal output in both modes...so when you nail it you get it all
And thats usually why the shift mapping is different...there arent usually entirely different shift mapping for drive modes but the shifting is based on pedal position and that changes with drive modes
My strategy doesnt have tables for drive modes but there is a pedal multiplier for sport mode....
Did you notice in the pic you posted that 100% pedal inputgives 100% pedal output in both modes...so when you nail it you get it all
And thats usually why the shift mapping is different...there arent usually entirely different shift mapping for drive modes but the shifting is based on pedal position and that changes with drive modes
I thought about it that way, except your SCT 2014 calibration showed a table that's not found in my 2014 file in HPTuners, so there are tables that exist but haven't been identified by HPTuners' programmers.
Did you notice the pic with the 100% pedal input is only for 2015-up? That setting is missing in the pre-15 EcoBoost F-150 and missing in my 2014 SHO - but we both know that table exists somewhere in the 2014 because otherwise there wouldn't be a difference shifting between D and S. But in Sport mode, you can see that at a commanded 13.2% input, the throttle begins to open more and more towards 100% than what was commanded.
I also rarely punch it 100% on the street because I really don't need to - but I enjoy the throttle opening faster in Sport mode. So what I'd like to do is copy the Sport mode throttle table and paste that into the Normal drive mode. That way I have the stock Normal shift map for better fuel economy, but the throttle feels more responsive. So far that isn't feasible with HPTuners at least for the 2014. Again, if I had access to a 2015 SHO, I'd just do a VCM read and check it out.
Did you notice the pic with the 100% pedal input is only for 2015-up? That setting is missing in the pre-15 EcoBoost F-150 and missing in my 2014 SHO - but we both know that table exists somewhere in the 2014 because otherwise there wouldn't be a difference shifting between D and S. But in Sport mode, you can see that at a commanded 13.2% input, the throttle begins to open more and more towards 100% than what was commanded.
I also rarely punch it 100% on the street because I really don't need to - but I enjoy the throttle opening faster in Sport mode. So what I'd like to do is copy the Sport mode throttle table and paste that into the Normal drive mode. That way I have the stock Normal shift map for better fuel economy, but the throttle feels more responsive. So far that isn't feasible with HPTuners at least for the 2014. Again, if I had access to a 2015 SHO, I'd just do a VCM read and check it out.
That wasnt my calibration...it was a stock file vs the sct performance tune......judging from the way hpt looks there ate hundreds if not thousands of different tables in sct that are not in hp
Yeah but i told you that my sport mode sensitivity is from a multiplier not a table....i actually hate sport mode...it doesnt make good use of the pedal range....you get more throttle than the amount of pedal you are at and wot comes sooner so you lose pedal range and lose the ability to throttle the car yourself
Yeah but i told you that my sport mode sensitivity is from a multiplier not a table....i actually hate sport mode...it doesnt make good use of the pedal range....you get more throttle than the amount of pedal you are at and wot comes sooner so you lose pedal range and lose the ability to throttle the car yourself
The stock file is your base calibration, the tables don't just disappear when you make changes!
The specific table I'm referring to is the WOP Clip Switch in your base calibration. That table isn't found in HPTuners, but is present in the actual 2014 SHO. whether your actual current tune made changes to this switch doesn't matter, the table is present and accessible in your 2014 calibration file - but it hasn't been identified in HPTuners. It is however, found in the 2015-up calibrations with HPTuners.
I'm sure there are lots of tables found in SCT that aren't in HPTuners, many of them were unlocked with calibrator level access and didn't make any sense. The bulk of the important tables are in HPTuners though.
I love sport mode because it makes the car feel alive. Sometimes I'll forget the shfiter is still in Sport mode, and I'll comment to myself, "wow the car feels really good, what's going on? Oh, it's in Sport mode". There's significant throttle delay/lag with the normal Drive mode that I despise. With Sport mode and the paddle shifters, the SHO almost feels like my Mustang with a manual transmission with respect to the throttle sensitivity and holding the transmission in specific gears, and being able to get the car to lurch at speed with a sudden thrust to the throttle. In fact, before I pull out onto a busy road or if I know I'll need to accelerate quickly, I automatically shift into Sport mode. That is how much I hate the normal throttle mode. What would make the 6F55 better is faster and rev-matched downshifts, and faster upshifts.
If they logged the number of times I used Sport mode and/or the paddles, it'd be a large percentage of the time! To each their own of course, otherwise it'd be like arguing over which color is the best.
The specific table I'm referring to is the WOP Clip Switch in your base calibration. That table isn't found in HPTuners, but is present in the actual 2014 SHO. whether your actual current tune made changes to this switch doesn't matter, the table is present and accessible in your 2014 calibration file - but it hasn't been identified in HPTuners. It is however, found in the 2015-up calibrations with HPTuners.
I'm sure there are lots of tables found in SCT that aren't in HPTuners, many of them were unlocked with calibrator level access and didn't make any sense. The bulk of the important tables are in HPTuners though.
I love sport mode because it makes the car feel alive. Sometimes I'll forget the shfiter is still in Sport mode, and I'll comment to myself, "wow the car feels really good, what's going on? Oh, it's in Sport mode". There's significant throttle delay/lag with the normal Drive mode that I despise. With Sport mode and the paddle shifters, the SHO almost feels like my Mustang with a manual transmission with respect to the throttle sensitivity and holding the transmission in specific gears, and being able to get the car to lurch at speed with a sudden thrust to the throttle. In fact, before I pull out onto a busy road or if I know I'll need to accelerate quickly, I automatically shift into Sport mode. That is how much I hate the normal throttle mode. What would make the 6F55 better is faster and rev-matched downshifts, and faster upshifts.
If they logged the number of times I used Sport mode and/or the paddles, it'd be a large percentage of the time! To each their own of course, otherwise it'd be like arguing over which color is the best.
Hhmm i have no lag or delay in drive or sport and i did nothing fancy
Im not sure what you mean by the tables disappearing but what im saying is you are only seeing the changes from the base tune to the sct performance tune and thats it.
If i compared my tune to the base tune there would be hundreds and hundreds of changes
All you saw in that txt file is the garbage that sct changed over the base tune...so im not saying anything disappeared but rather what you saw is probably less than 1% of items in a tune
Im not sure what you mean by the tables disappearing but what im saying is you are only seeing the changes from the base tune to the sct performance tune and thats it.
If i compared my tune to the base tune there would be hundreds and hundreds of changes
All you saw in that txt file is the garbage that sct changed over the base tune...so im not saying anything disappeared but rather what you saw is probably less than 1% of items in a tune
You're also running a tune, and I am still stock hence the throttle lag and delay in normal mode. All I needed to see were those changes. I don't really need or care to look at your actual 16-18 psi tune.
But you're still missing my point and I'm not sure why. Fact: you had a few tables changed during the comparo, indicates that the particular tables exist and are available via SCT in the 2014 calibration, but that table does not show up in HPTuners with a 2014 calibration. Those tables do show up in HPTuners with 2015-up EcoBoost F-150 and EcoBoost Mustang calibrations, so HPTuners just has to identify that table in the pre-15 code. There are other such tables that need to be identified/revealed/unlocked for pre-15 as well within HPTuners. Again, it doesn't matter if it is your actual secret sauce final tune.
But before this gets sidetracked from the OP's question, I'd recommend he go with SCT. I'm most likely sticking with HPTuners because it is the least expensive route, I can work around some of the problems, and I'm not looking for 500+ hp.
But you're still missing my point and I'm not sure why. Fact: you had a few tables changed during the comparo, indicates that the particular tables exist and are available via SCT in the 2014 calibration, but that table does not show up in HPTuners with a 2014 calibration. Those tables do show up in HPTuners with 2015-up EcoBoost F-150 and EcoBoost Mustang calibrations, so HPTuners just has to identify that table in the pre-15 code. There are other such tables that need to be identified/revealed/unlocked for pre-15 as well within HPTuners. Again, it doesn't matter if it is your actual secret sauce final tune.
But before this gets sidetracked from the OP's question, I'd recommend he go with SCT. I'm most likely sticking with HPTuners because it is the least expensive route, I can work around some of the problems, and I'm not looking for 500+ hp.
I didnt change anything with the throttle sensitivty and my throttle doesnt feel laggy...you are probably feeling tq reductions when u hit the throttle and the downshifts are prolonged
I think you are confused how the comparo feature works in sct...u only saw the changes between a stock tune and the sct performance tune
Im estimating that you saw less than 1% of a base tune
If i compared mine to stock you would likely see hundreds of things not in hp
If i opened 2 of my tunes there would be very little in the comparo text file i sent you it would be empty
I think you are confused how the comparo feature works in sct...u only saw the changes between a stock tune and the sct performance tune
Im estimating that you saw less than 1% of a base tune
If i compared mine to stock you would likely see hundreds of things not in hp
If i opened 2 of my tunes there would be very little in the comparo text file i sent you it would be empty
ajpturbo said:u only saw the changes between a stock tune and the sct performance tune
Exactly, that's all I needed, and my point is there was at least 1 table that is accessible in SCT (shown by your TXT file) but wasn't available in the pre-15 HPTuners calibration files. The WOP Clip Switch doesn't show up AT ALL in the pre-15 HPTuners files, but shows up in 15-up EcoBoost HPTuners files and in your 2014 SCT file. This has nothing to do with your full tune.
AJP Turbo:
I datalogged some more, with the PIDs you recommended at SCTFlash (Torque Source). Instead of 0 or numbers, I see text like Driver Demand, Trans Trunc, Trans Shift, TQ Based Decel, TipOut Limit, TipIn Limit
Any ideas on what these mean? I think Trans Trunc refers to the torque limiters in the Transmission Torque Management tables.
I also didn't understand your comment about fuel pressure, "if it gets under 1200 psi you are out of fuel". I was datalogging the high pressure fuel data, and my Actual max pressure was 2530 psi, Desired max pressure was 2150 psi, and the SAE Fuel Pressure reading was 2202 psi.
The highest TIP Actual I saw was 60 inHg, same with desired - makes a bit of sense since it is a 2-bar MAP and I'm still stock.
Highest massflow reading was about 40 lb/min.
Running 87 octane, the most spark retard was 7 degrees in 2 cells, most of the other cells averaged between 1-3 if it pulled any spark.
I datalogged some more, with the PIDs you recommended at SCTFlash (Torque Source). Instead of 0 or numbers, I see text like Driver Demand, Trans Trunc, Trans Shift, TQ Based Decel, TipOut Limit, TipIn Limit
Any ideas on what these mean? I think Trans Trunc refers to the torque limiters in the Transmission Torque Management tables.
I also didn't understand your comment about fuel pressure, "if it gets under 1200 psi you are out of fuel". I was datalogging the high pressure fuel data, and my Actual max pressure was 2530 psi, Desired max pressure was 2150 psi, and the SAE Fuel Pressure reading was 2202 psi.
The highest TIP Actual I saw was 60 inHg, same with desired - makes a bit of sense since it is a 2-bar MAP and I'm still stock.
Highest massflow reading was about 40 lb/min.
Running 87 octane, the most spark retard was 7 degrees in 2 cells, most of the other cells averaged between 1-3 if it pulled any spark.
Trans torque truncation isnt really a limiter but its a defined value that the ecu just stops seeing higher values than that
I would only worry about torque source during wot....driver demand is 0 and thats what u want at wot
U need to see the high pressure during the wot pull not just the max values....ur 2500 psi was just a spike probably when u lifted and the pressure dead headed because the injectors closed
U dont need to be concerned with pressure since you are stock...its not really a 2 bar sensor but close enough for conversation.....the sensor maxes at 206 kpa at 4.8 volts...which should be about 15.16 psi
It sounds like you are looking at alot of spikes and not steady state data...shouldnt be anwhere near 60 inhg or 40 lb per min when stock
I would only worry about torque source during wot....driver demand is 0 and thats what u want at wot
U need to see the high pressure during the wot pull not just the max values....ur 2500 psi was just a spike probably when u lifted and the pressure dead headed because the injectors closed
U dont need to be concerned with pressure since you are stock...its not really a 2 bar sensor but close enough for conversation.....the sensor maxes at 206 kpa at 4.8 volts...which should be about 15.16 psi
It sounds like you are looking at alot of spikes and not steady state data...shouldnt be anwhere near 60 inhg or 40 lb per min when stock
I'm looking at max values as well as the graphed outputs. So the longest steady state TIP Actual value I see is 53 inHg, but it swings between 53 and 58 inHg relatively smoothly, and the fuel pressure is 2050-2150 psi steady (not a spike) although it rose up to 2500 psi just prior. The Torque Source is Trans Trunc during WOT runs. The airflow ramps up to 37-38 lb/min very steadily averaging about 34 lb/min during the WOT runs.
I also logged Driver Demand Limit Source, and I saw mostly No Limit Active, but Combustion Stability Limited popped up as well as Trans Max Shift Rate during the WOT shifts.
An issue I observed is that I knew my throttle pedal was to the floor, and I kept it on the floor, but the Relative TPS %, and the Act/Desired Throttle angles were varying. Meaning, I started from a standstill and could see my relative throttle position go to about 64% (which is WOT for whatever reason the SAE PID translates to 64%), and my Actual/Desired Throttle angle is 82* which is max according to the stock tune, but immediately after it would drop down to about 40%, and starts swinging around 30% (throttle angle swings between 30* and 54*). It's probably because of a torque limiter?
I also logged Driver Demand Limit Source, and I saw mostly No Limit Active, but Combustion Stability Limited popped up as well as Trans Max Shift Rate during the WOT shifts.
An issue I observed is that I knew my throttle pedal was to the floor, and I kept it on the floor, but the Relative TPS %, and the Act/Desired Throttle angles were varying. Meaning, I started from a standstill and could see my relative throttle position go to about 64% (which is WOT for whatever reason the SAE PID translates to 64%), and my Actual/Desired Throttle angle is 82* which is max according to the stock tune, but immediately after it would drop down to about 40%, and starts swinging around 30% (throttle angle swings between 30* and 54*). It's probably because of a torque limiter?
I wouldnt worry about tip....since you are stock most of the wot pull your throttle wont be open fully(82 degrees)....when the throttle closes the tip goes up....to see boost you should log manifold pressure....and also you want to see desired tip to see what you are targeting.....no need to log fuel pressure at stock boost....really no need to log fuel pressure unless you are going to run more than 15 psi below 2500 rpm and 20 psi above 3500 rpm....thats when pressure falls off
You are hitting a limiter in the trans in torque limit section....the ecu is using the trans to reduce output since you are hitting the threshold that is defined to be a limit of trans torque
You are hitting a limiter in the trans in torque limit section....the ecu is using the trans to reduce output since you are hitting the threshold that is defined to be a limit of trans torque
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