3 Bar and Stuff

[boostedflex]

Hey everyone,

I have been tuned now for about 12,000 miles (Torrie), no issues at all, very pleased   I recently added a boost gauge though, my Flex has always seemed to dog on the two to three shift, now watching the gauge, I see the boost drop to like 10 pounds for the shift, then raise back up.  Guessing this is torque management?  Can this be reduced on a specific gear shift (I am happy with all other shifts except for this one), and long term will it affect reliability if I am hitting third harder?

Also, keep going back and forth on the 3 bar map, right now beyond the two three shift I am happy, will the 3 bar give me a noticeable bump in performance, and if so at the expense of turbo/engine/drivetrain life?  Torrie also pulled some timing from my tune so the car would be a bit more forgiving if I get a bad tank of gas (think a station sold me 89 octane instead of 93, lucky I caught the pinging really quick), how much less of a safety net would I have if Torrie did elect to raise the boost after the 3 bar.  I do find myself flogging my ride a couple of times a day, so while I would like a bit more power, I dont want to kill my vehicle either.

Thanks in advance,
Rik

 

[BiGMaC]

The 3BAR (with tuning for it) will allow the ECM to adjust for and use boost levels above 14.7 psi, since the 2BAR MAP can't even detect them.  These levels are primarily spikes and the stock Garret SHO turbos, per the manufacturer site, are only capable of maybe 17 psi or so max. In at least one dyno tuned SHO at LME more WHP was actually attained with less boost than the canned LME tune. Engines do differ, even in the same model.

My experience has been a much smoother performance overall, but especially in brisk acceleration, due to a more incremental sensing and transmission of boost data to the ECM... I confirmed this in a phone conversation with Dan Millen at LME after I added my 3BAR a year ago.  I am much more pleased with my car since the 3BAR was added and have had no problems over about 13K miles.  It is actually an F150 EB part... they have larger turbos on their 3.5TT GDI than the SHO.  Will this affect your shift issue... dunno.  Consider that any increased performance (tuning), if the power is actually used, increases stress/wear of the engine and drivetrain ultimately shortening lifespan.  ...And like you I love "pole position" at a stoplight! So i have a bit of a leadoff too, LOL, and on the freeway I cruise at 80-90 mph with throttle response remaining very good.

Hope this helps... I would not be without a tune and I love the 3BAR overall performance.  It is a relatively inexpensive, quick, and easy thing to try... If you don't like it, just revert.

 

[SHOdded]

What boost are you seeing at the 2-3 shift, Rik, before the drop?

 

[ZSHO]

To benefit the most from your tune,it will be beneficial if you Data log and see whats actually going on,and adjust your levels accordingly.

 

[boostedflex]

Thanks everyone, I do have to datalog, plan on doing that before I work on any real adjustments.  Hey SHOdded, varies, but like 13 to 14 pounds usually, then drops to about 10 just for the shift, then after the shift it will jump back up to 14.

 

[boostedflex]

So I pulled up my last datalog, and what I see is my boost in second peaks at 15.3 pounds (not sure how with a 2 bar map but whatever) at 5189 rpms, then it starts dropping, and by the 2 to 3 shift at 5725 rpms it is at 12.3 pounds, so that I guess is just a normal function of torque management?  The other gears seem to show the same trend.

 

[SHOdded]

I would suspect it is totally normal.  That peak is beyond the range of the 2-bar, so the 3-bar + tune updated to accommodate will help.  Torrie can update the tq mgmt to be "smoother" for sure IF needed.

 

[Sinister-CO]

Save yourself some money and get a 2.5 bar.

 

[ajpturbo]

Save yourself some money and get a 2.5 bar.

Not sure if any exist that are compatible...and u would have to rescale and tune for that...the 3 bar swap is much simpler and in the tune u only need to replicate the values that are used for the tip sensor which is the 3 bar since ford already has a value file for that sensor

 

[Sinister-CO]

Save yourself some money and get a 2.5 bar.

Not sure if any exist that are compatible...and u would have to rescale and tune for that...the 3 bar swap is much simpler and in the tune u only need to replicate the values that are used for the tip sensor which is the 3 bar since ford already has a value file for that sensor

The F-150 uses a 2.5 bar in the intake. CX 2401 if I'm not mistaken. The tunes can be adjusted just as they were originally for the 3 bar.

 

[ajpturbo]

Save yourself some money and get a 2.5 bar.

Not sure if any exist that are compatible...and u would have to rescale and tune for that...the 3 bar swap is much simpler and in the tune u only need to replicate the values that are used for the tip sensor which is the 3 bar since ford already has a value file for that sensor

The F-150 uses a 2.5 bar in the intake. CX 2401 if I'm not mistaken. The tunes can be adjusted just as they were originally for the 3 bar.

That sensor is what people are referring to the 3 bar ...there isn't much tuning or adjusting for that sensor...no slope or intercept testing...just use the same values as the tip sensor or the intake 2.5 bar that u are referring to...I think people call it a 3 bar because reading from vacuum to atmosphere plus boost but I'm not sure about that..but it doesn't really matter...there literally are only 2 values that u change to make the car run properly when u insert the tip sensor in the manifold...raising the boost is different...u can install the 3 bar and run stock boost if u want...the f150 and the Taurus share the same tip sensor or intake sensor as u call it

 

[SHOdded]

CX2231 is the SHO 3 bar, CX2228 is the 2 bar.  Don't know if the F-150 MAP sensor will fit the SHO/Flex/XSport easily.

 

[ajpturbo]

There was a very small learnng curve when people started installing the tip sensor in the manifold in order to raise boost...the value files already existed for the software so u literally just changed a couple values and u didn't have to worry about any further fuel tuning but if u try any other aftermarket map sensors the entire speed density portion of the time would need rescaled and that would be very different than using ford sensors with tried and true software value files

 

[BiGMaC]

I stand corrected on my statement regarding the F150 MAP.  There is confusion even in ford's packaging and part labelling... From mine--> this is the box, Ford ID, and 3BAR MAP...The part# can end in A, B, or AB... If it ends in C then its the 2BAR.




The pic below is where it goes... On top of the manifold.    Note the TIP sensor is in the IC to TB pipe. see below.

 

[ajpturbo]

The 3BAR (with tuning for it) will allow the ECM to adjust for and use boost levels above 14.7 psi, since the 2BAR MAP can't even detect them.  These levels are primarily spikes and the stock Garret SHO turbos, per the manufacturer site, are only capable of maybe 17 psi or so max. In at least one dyno tuned SHO at LME more WHP was actually attained with less boost than the canned LME tune. Engines do differ, even in the same model.

My experience has been a much smoother performance overall, but especially in brisk acceleration, due to a more incremental sensing and transmission of boost data to the ECM... I confirmed this in a phone conversation with Dan Millen at LME after I added my 3BAR a year ago.  I am much more pleased with my car since the 3BAR was added and have had no problems over about 13K miles.  It is actually an F150 EB part... they have larger turbos on their 3.5TT GDI than the SHO.  Will this affect your shift issue... dunno.  Consider that any increased performance (tuning), if the power is actually used, increases stress/wear of the engine and drivetrain ultimately shortening lifespan.  ...And like you I love "pole position" at a stoplight! So i have a bit of a leadoff too, LOL, and on the freeway I cruise at 80-90 mph with throttle response remaining very good.

Hope this helps... I would not be without a tune and I love the 3BAR overall performance.  It is a relatively inexpensive, quick, and easy thing to try... If you don't like it, just revert.

Bigmac you gotta let go of that 3 bar being able to read boost in smaller increments...This really goes against the logic for using longer range map sensors for any tuning software...Your perceived smoother car is the result of better overall tuning, and I do believe you are feeling a smoother car, just not for the reason you think...And I believe someone would pitch that as a benefit and perk to running a 3 bar.

And I've never seen a car have less power when running the same car with more boost....Perhaps the canned tune was less aggressive with timing and running richer...You should see the dyno charts and the article on kenne bells website and the results of 1 degree timing changes...More boost can become less efficient but still make more power all things being equal.

You are asking for more interpolation by the ECU between data points with the 3 bar plain and simple. But I love my 3 bar tune also. The increased interpolation that I speak of though is not enough to diminish drivability so it's really a non issue...So meet me halfway...It doesn't hurt but it won't help drivability either lol

 

[SHOnUup]

If the 3bar gives an actual reading for an over boost scenario instead of some random # the 2 bar can't pickup...wouldn't the ecu have a better chance of adjusting for it?

Rich

 

[ajpturbo]

Yeah it can pick it up because it's meant to read pressures that high but has nothing to do with being able to see smaller increments if that's what you mean...

 

[ZSHO]

The 3BAR (with tuning for it) will allow the ECM to adjust for and use boost levels above 14.7 psi, since the 2BAR MAP can't even detect them.  These levels are primarily spikes and the stock Garret SHO turbos, per the manufacturer site, are only capable of maybe 17 psi or so max. In at least one dyno tuned SHO at LME more WHP was actually attained with less boost than the canned LME tune. Engines do differ, even in the same model.

My experience has been a much smoother performance overall, but especially in brisk acceleration, due to a more incremental sensing and transmission of boost data to the ECM... I confirmed this in a phone conversation with Dan Millen at LME after I added my 3BAR a year ago.  I am much more pleased with my car since the 3BAR was added and have had no problems over about 13K miles.  It is actually an F150 EB part... they have larger turbos on their 3.5TT GDI than the SHO.  Will this affect your shift issue... dunno.  Consider that any increased performance (tuning), if the power is actually used, increases stress/wear of the engine and drivetrain ultimately shortening lifespan.  ...And like you I love "pole position" at a stoplight! So i have a bit of a leadoff too, LOL, and on the freeway I cruise at 80-90 mph with throttle response remaining very good.

Hope this helps... I would not be without a tune and I love the 3BAR overall performance.  It is a relatively inexpensive, quick, and easy thing to try... If you don't like it, just revert.

Bigmac you gotta let go of that 3 bar being able to read boost in smaller increments...This really goes against the logic for using longer range map sensors for any tuning software...Your perceived smoother car is the result of better overall tuning, and I do believe you are feeling a smoother car, just not for the reason you think...And I believe someone would pitch that as a benefit and perk to running a 3 bar.

And I've never seen a car have less power when running the same car with more boost....Perhaps the canned tune was less aggressive with timing and running richer...You should see the dyno charts and the article on kenne bells website and the results of 1 degree timing changes...More boost can become less efficient but still make more power all things being equal.

You are asking for more interpolation by the ECU between data points with the 3 bar plain and simple. But I love my 3 bar tune also. The increased interpolation that I speak of though is not enough to diminish drivability so it's really a non issue...So meet me halfway...It doesn't hurt but it won't help drivability either lol

I thought in order to achieve the highest reliable power,you needed to reduce boost,adjust the AFR to richer mixture,and retard ingnition timing,having these three parameters optimized together will yield the most power,another note is the 3-bar scenario is getting kind of old in my book,lets turn to another chapter.Z.

 

[ajpturbo]

Highest reliable power or highest power?....The highest power you will want the most ignition advance your fuel can handle before self igniting. But yeah reliable power will be a combo of low timing and rich fuel mixture

 

[JMR76]

All I know is that when I went to the 3 bar tune I didn't have any of the high RPM hesitation anymore and no more fuel pressure drop off.  It may be because the ecu couldn't read the the higher spikes in boost with 2 bar or maybe not.  Maybe it was just better tuning but I definitely don't have the fuel pressure drops with the 3 bar and I have more power that is smoother.