3 bar MAP tune with stock thermostat?

[Black Dream]

Couple of quick questions.  Just installed a 3 bar with Unleashed tune on the MKS and I kept the stock thermostat in to see how she ran on a very short run.  Like a beast of course, noticeable power difference with peak boost at 19#, previous high with my 93 Performance tune was 16.2.  I've read that it's ok to run with the stock stat but saw temperatures vary today 5-6 degrees from the pre-3 bar tune I've been running.  Normal cruising temp for me has been 193-195 and on this short trip they spiked to 198-201.  When the thermostat opened then all was back to upper 180's to mid-low 190's but the temps seemed faster to ramp up than before.  I ordered a Reische 170* today and wanted to see if the recommendation from the masses was to drive it as is, carefully, or replace the stock MAP and re-flash that tune.

Also is our recommended coolant, VC 10-A compatible with the VC 10-A-2?  I'm thinking the 2 is just an updated version but could definitely be wrong.  Seems Rockauto has the best pricing on the 2 version.


And finally a mini-rant.  I bought a 3 bar from one member here and when it arrived I sent it back because the number on the part didn't match the number on the box.  Box says AA5Z-9F479B, sensor says AA5A-9F479-AB which is the exact same part number as the factory MAS that's installed in front of the throttle body.  When I opened the second sensor I got from a different member today voila, same scenario.  I attached a picture for clarity.  Because the car's running great after installing the new MAP and 3 bar tune I have to assume the sensor is correct but I'm soooo confused lol.

 

[TopherSho]

Couple of quick questions.  Just installed a 3 bar with Unleashed tune on the MKS and I kept the stock thermostat in to see how she ran on a very short run.  Like a beast of course, noticeable power difference with peak boost at 19#, previous high with my 93 Performance tune was 16.2.  I've read that it's ok to run with the stock stat but saw temperatures vary today 5-6 degrees from the pre-3 bar tune I've been running.  Normal cruising temp for me has been 193-195 and on this short trip they spiked to 198-201.  When the thermostat opened then all was back to upper 180's to mid-low 190's but the temps seemed faster to ramp up than before.  I ordered a Reische 170* today and wanted to see if the recommendation from the masses was to drive it as is, carefully, or replace the stock MAP and re-flash that tune.

Also is our recommended coolant, VC 10-A compatible with the VC 10-A-2?  I'm thinking the 2 is just an updated version but could definitely be wrong.  Seems Rockauto has the best pricing on the 2 version.


And finally a mini-rant.  I bought a 3 bar from one member here and when it arrived I sent it back because the number on the part didn't match the number on the box.  Box says AA5Z-9F479B, sensor says AA5A-9F479-AB which is the exact same part number as the factory MAS that's installed in front of the throttle body.  When I opened the second sensor I got from a different member today voila, same scenario.  I attached a picture for clarity.  Because the car's running great after installing the new MAP and 3 bar tune I have to assume the sensor is correct but I'm soooo confused lol.

In the initial days of tuning the SHOS vendors were moding the OEM bar sensors to operate as three bars .. as far as I recall there are no issues using a modded bar sensors..

 

[ZSHO]

The 3-Bar map sensor should end in the letter B and you should be good to go AFAIK.
The 2-Bar map sensor ends in the letter A for the most part due to new part revisions. Z

 

[SHOdded]

Often times labeling on the box is not updated in lockstep with the labeling on the part.  Not to worry, it has been this way for a while with this sensor

As far as coolant, specialty green and orange coolants are not interchangeable.  If you have oem orange coolant, ONLY use orange because it has a plasticizer for the seals, and spec green has none.  Keep the coolant changed regularly, make sure no slime builds up in the degas bottle, with ANY coolant, but particularly with orange.

I do not see the VC-10-A designation anywhere, where are you seeing it?  Post a pic?

https://www.motorcraft.com/content/dam/ford-motorcraft/en_us/motorcraft_global/products/chemicals_and_lubricants/engine_products_and_coolants/Productos%20y%20refrigerantes%20para%20motor-scucEN.pdf

 

[Black Dream]

I got that designation straight from the MKS owners manual, page 345.  Pic attached.  Thanks for the info on the sensors, I'm still amused the MAF sensor is the same part as the 3 bar.  I didn't see that coming.

 

[SHOdded]

ok thats what I thought you are looking at the Canadian spec which is CVC10A.  same difference.

final factor in what coolant to use is the color of the coolant currently in place, if original.  either dark green or orange. any other color is likely to be aftermarket.

 

[sm105k]

The colder T-Stat is a time long debate.

http://www.tuneruniversity.com/blog/2012/04/low-temp-thermostats-whats-the-advantage/

Come up with you own conclusion.

Personally I believe Ford has way more R&D money then any of the tuners that tune this platform.  Ford knows what the best/optimal operating temp for this combination is.  Adding a cooler T-Stat will make negligible power, and create more wear and tear on the motor because it is working outside the optimal operating temp.  I have a very hot E30 tune (max effort) and I live in the Phoenix.  I beat on my car in the dead of summer, with a stock t-stat all of the time. My temps stay within norm.  Hell my trans at cruising speed gets significantly hotter then my engine temps ever do.  190 for the engine, 207 for the trans at 80 mph.     

 

[SHOdded]

Running cooler than OEM does not hurt performance or longevity in any way.  Got to remember, the OEM has a major concern about emissions, and they want to run pig rich to allow for detonation/sloppy programming.  Livernois FWIW has repeatedly stated that EBs like to run in the 140F range.

Tuning takes care of these issues by turning on the fans sooner and running longer.  Also tightens up the fuel trims for better performance AND emissions.  Just requires more rigorous maintenance, so that IS a downside.

 

[Black Dream]

Thanks for the feedback fellas.  The coolant is green and I would assume Ford spec, this car was maintained all of it's life at a dealership and owned by an older couple the whole time.  One of the reasons I picked this particular car.  Hell the ac filters under the seats look brand new as does the cabin air filter.


Seems Rockauto has the best price on the coolant so I've got some on the way.  I was a little concerned with the temps on my initial test drive, while under WOT temp would spike to ~206 then would take a while to return to the low 190's. Today with more extensive driving same cycle with full acceleration but the temps came down quicker and returned to normal for most of the trip.  I already bought a Reische 170 so I'll put it in when it comes and run it for a bit datalogging what's up and go from there.  I don't beat on the car daily, we're still having mid to upper 90's temps here in South Texas, but I like for the go fast to be there safely when I feel the need hehe.

P.S. Apparently I'm an idiot lol, I was thinking the MAF was in the intake tube right before the throttle body and it's not DOH.  Not sure why, I have replaced and cleaned multiple MAFs on different cars.  Old age I suppose.    What purpose does the 3 bar MAP serve being there right in front of the TB, as far as I know it measures manifold absolute pressure.

 

[sm105k]

Running cooler than OEM does not hurt performance or longevity in any way.  Got to remember, the OEM has a major concern about emissions, and they want to run pig rich to allow for detonation/sloppy programming.  Livernois FWIW has repeatedly stated that EBs like to run in the 140F range.

Tuning takes care of these issues by turning on the fans sooner and running longer.  Also tightens up the fuel trims for better performance AND emissions.  Just requires more rigorous maintenance, so that IS a downside.

I am going to have to agree to disagree with you my friend.  You stated, "It just requires more rigorous maintenance, so that IS a downside".  Is that in regards to a complete tune, the t-stat, or both? 

Disregarding the emissions sides, I was leaning towards the mechnical side.  If Ford wants to run their motors in the hotter range they design the motor and metallurgy to accommodate this.  They want the proper expansion of metals and clearances. Rings and bearings to be exact. Running engines below their optimal range does not allow this, and does hurt performance and longevity.  Especially if you are running colder T-stat in the dead of winter and not allowing the motor to get into optimal temp range.   

I also take a lot of what LMS has to say with a grain of salt.  Getting an engine to sustain an operating temp of 140 degrees may make more power yes in a control enviroment.  In a real world application year around?  Asinine. 

I would also like to see how many "tuned" engine failures have had the lower T-stat in them.  I think that could be used as good data point. 

 

[SHOdded]

Blaming an isolated part like a thermostat for engine failure ... no way.  Again, Ford builds to compromises, not to the be all you can be standard.

downside was referring to the tune since there you ARE pushing limits.  better cooling causing problems?  no.

I WILL say that having the fan operation changed is WAY more significant.  Really no need to change the TStat if you don't want to.  brucelinc proved that over n over.

 

[sm105k]

Blaming an isolated part like a thermostat for engine failure ... no way.  Again, Ford builds to compromises, not to the be all you can be standard.

downside was referring to the tune since there you ARE pushing limits.  better cooling causing problems?  no.

I WILL say that having the fan operation changed is WAY more significant.  Really no need to change the TStat if you don't want to.  brucelinc proved that over n over.

I wasn't only inferring that the T-stat was a cause of engine failure.  I could argue that prolonged running out of a optimal temp could cause damage that leads to failure. Sometimes too good of cooling causes problems.

I agree with the fan operation 100%  I would rather push the engine in the temp it was designed for with prolonged fan use, then not.  I think the colder t-stat is a gimmick.   

 

[Blackhawk]

Shoot Torrie a message and he should get you a tune file without the changes for the t-stat if you are worried about it.  Probably within 30 mins, dude normally has a stupid fast turnaround time. 

 

[ZSHO]

I would remove the engine cover since these engines are pretty sealed up from the factory and Btw its Free. Z

 

[Black Dream]

The tune I'm running is just to add the 3 bar, not the thermostat as well. Yeah he's stupid fast, I requested a revision for my 93 performance tune and in less than 10 minutes I had revisions for all 3 of my tunes.

I'm also not wanting to try the 170 stat to run cooler than OEM temps, just to bring them back to where they were, less than 10* higher. If the car runs significantly cooler than it did, I'll put the stock back in.

And as always thanks for all the discussion, as usual I'm learning a lot about this platform all the time.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk