A Question for LME on VTA

[4DRHTRD]

I've definitely said for the entire time I did the write up on using the stock BoV with factory tubing that it gains nothing, I'm glad you cleared that up, no power is going to be lost from doing this on our cars.
The pipes I made was to fix an issue of the factory pieces coming apart under high boost in AZ, plastic and rubber doesn't live long here, I've also stated on those pipes no power will be gained.

 

[SHOnUup]

Would there be a possibility while brake boosting at the tree and you go past your desired rpm's and let off throttle slightly to get back down in the range wanted causing a VTA condition?

Rich

 

[4DRHTRD]

Would there be a possibility while brake boosting at the tree and you go past your desired rpm's and let off throttle slightly to get back down in the range wanted causing a VTA condition?

Rich

Dropping rpms slightly won't cause it to open, just a full lift from my experience at the track.

 

[ZSHO]

In general when there is a cut in throttle,the pressurized air needs somewhere to go,when recirculated,the air is reused and sent back to the air intake(and goes through the process again),because of this your ECU /tune is expecting this recirculated air,when you vent this pressurized air to the atmosphere,your throwing it away when the ECU is expecting it,this obviously causes stability issues,there no beneficial point to running  a VTA bov setup,other than sound,if you really want sound,you can get it from your CAI,personally think its degrading to sacrifice performance/stability just for sound,this is only my opinion.

 

[4DRHTRD]

In general when there is a cut in throttle,the pressurized air needs somewhere to go,when recirculated,the air is reused and sent back to the air intake(and goes through the process again),because of this your ECU /tune is expecting this recirculated air,when you vent this pressurized air to the atmosphere,your throwing it away when the ECU is expecting it,this obviously causes stability issues,there no beneficial point to running  a VTA bov setup,other than sound,if you really want sound,you can get it from your CAI,personally think its degrading to sacrifice performance/stability just for sound,this is only my opinion.

Unfortunately this is incorrect on our cars, the ECU is speed density and works off of different calcs than a MAF car does.

 

[SHOnUup]

I've been intrigued by the VTA option ever since a srt4 neon pulled up messing with me letting the VTA do some work. Sounded pretty cool.

Rich

 

[navbtcret]

I find no real heat soak with the pipes either. I really like LMS and use their tunes and have no desire to go anywhere else. The metal pipes do not really see anymore heat soak than the plastic and once you get moving it is gone, just like the plastic. I really do not like the sound of the aftermarket BOV but that is the nature of buying something used for a good price as preventative maintenance.

Not really sure how you can mess up installing this either, it is pretty straight forward.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Our testing on metal pipes has show drastically different results, but we also test things much further than most people do. We are talking about more than just ACT, but actually measuring at multiple points, and seeing what kind of impact it has at high boost limits and the build up and transfer of heat.

We have never had issues with the stock pipes coming apart, regardless of the conditions they are under. Michigan see's plenty of 100+ degree days, plus our dyno cell has the ability to get much hotter than this. There was only one car we have ever replaced a pipe on and it was definitely a fluke as no other cars, regardless of boost level, have ever ran into an issue.

 

[4DRHTRD]

We have never had issues with the stock pipes coming apart, regardless of the conditions they are under. Michigan see's plenty of 100+ degree days, plus our dyno cell has the ability to get much hotter than this. There was only one car we have ever replaced a pipe on and it was definitely a fluke as no other cars, regardless of boost level, have ever ran into an issue.

I bet things rust there but your rubber on your windows lasts for years? Here we don't get rust but the rubber is dried out in 3-5 years on cars, my daughter's 2001 pickup all the seals needed replacing due to dry rot.
Sorry to debate this but you don't live here so you don't have even an understanding of what the dry heat does to the rubber components on cars, heck even our batteries only last 18 months at best due to them drying out (the non-serviceable ones)

 

[SHOdded]

I guess you get a lot of low-humidity, high-heat days, Mike?

 

[4DRHTRD]

I guess you get a lot of low-humidity, high-heat days, Mike?

Interior temps of cars hit 170+ - video below is not me
Car interior reaches unbelievable temp-Phoenix, AZ

Humidity is non-existent here in the summer -



Why do I live here?
62 out and everything is green and nice right now - 8 months of awesome 4 months of HELL vs 4-6 months frozen solid/ice, 2 months in spring/fall good weather and 2-3 months horrible humidity and bugs (we don't really have mosquitos here)

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Well, if there was a problem that would merit replacement, however, The thermal properties of metal vs. rubber and thermoplastic are definitely something to consider. If we had a problem, we would likely replace them with OEM parts due to thermal concerns, since a silicone coupler can deteriorate as well. Many diesel engines have Silicone/nomex couplers like used in the aftermarket and they also deteriorate. That's all we want people to know, if they are ok with chasing sound with some drop in power and consistency due to the thermal exchange differences that is fine. We just want customers to make educated decisions on things rather than just buying products because they exist.

 

[bigmoneycloser]

Well these cars are speed density so no MAF so no issues there. As it's an auto you don't have engagement of the BoV during acceleration like a stick car due to lifting of the throttle. The cars notated are definitely stick vs our auto. I think it's a matter of hey those have ecoboost and this has an ecoboost so it must be the same.
I don't care either way, just want proof for the general population. There's no vendor slant to this request just hey if you're going to say it then prove it and this is a pretty big statement IMHO.

First...I respect all your info and efforts to push this platform forward. Without your efforts we'd be years behind still.

Second....I've only heard of and have quit reading anything here pertaining to the differences between certain parties. I DON'T CARE...I just like cars and want everyone to succeed.

When you comment on issues, it should carry added weight being the owner and parts supplier.

When MDESIGN brings out new CAI and handicaps a known performance killing CAI in comparison to tout 15 HP gain, I'd expect a comment in there wanting more testing at least to tout these #'s on my site.

I still feel MDesign CAI is the best one for us, but if there's no solid data needed here, why is it needed elsewhere.

I guess it's the consistency I'm looking for.

Rich

Sorry Rich, I didn't see those statements, I just saw this one. I've been working 5:30 until 2:30 day job and 3pm until 11pm M-F and Sat 6a to 10p getting new shop ready, getting cars read for an event this last weekend etc. I try to read as much as I can and post where I can. I'd love to see dyno's proving any CAI making more HP, it would definitely validate the product.

Well I posted 10+ HP gains on my before and after dynos... With just the MDesign intake vs the air raid intake....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[panther427]

Everything has its limits. The quality silicone/nomex will last longer than a quality rubber connection. The biggest thing will be long term issue with rubber and plastic is the oil and fuel that can get into the intact track and brake it down over time.. and by time i mean 10+ years hell even 20+ years. Rubber isn't bad its cheaper and the car company's use the product that is the cheapest but effective part they can use to turn a profit.

There is a reason people need to replace several different types of hoses and connections with silicone.. I don't think we are at the "need" level yet but switching to silicone or staying rubber isnt bad either way. For most people. 

 

[BiGMaC]

Everything has its limits. The quality silicone/nomex will last longer than a quality rubber connection. The biggest thing will be long term issue with rubber and plastic is the oil and fuel that can get into the intact track and brake it down over time.. and by time i mean 10+ years hell even 20+ years. Rubber isn't bad its cheaper and the car company's use the product that is the cheapest but effective part they can use to turn a profit.

There is a reason people need to replace several different types of hoses and connections with silicone.. I don't think we are at the "need" level yet but switching to silicone or staying rubber isnt bad either way. For most people. 

I want with black AN  fittings and black ss mesh over hoses!  This is not helping me convince my wife that "need" is spelled w.a.n.t  LOL

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Well these cars are speed density so no MAF so no issues there. As it's an auto you don't have engagement of the BoV during acceleration like a stick car due to lifting of the throttle. The cars notated are definitely stick vs our auto. I think it's a matter of hey those have ecoboost and this has an ecoboost so it must be the same.
I don't care either way, just want proof for the general population. There's no vendor slant to this request just hey if you're going to say it then prove it and this is a pretty big statement IMHO.

First...I respect all your info and efforts to push this platform forward. Without your efforts we'd be years behind still.

Second....I've only heard of and have quit reading anything here pertaining to the differences between certain parties. I DON'T CARE...I just like cars and want everyone to succeed.

When you comment on issues, it should carry added weight being the owner and parts supplier.

When MDESIGN brings out new CAI and handicaps a known performance killing CAI in comparison to tout 15 HP gain, I'd expect a comment in there wanting more testing at least to tout these #'s on my site.

I still feel MDesign CAI is the best one for us, but if there's no solid data needed here, why is it needed elsewhere.

I guess it's the consistency I'm looking for.

Rich

Sorry Rich, I didn't see those statements, I just saw this one. I've been working 5:30 until 2:30 day job and 3pm until 11pm M-F and Sat 6a to 10p getting new shop ready, getting cars read for an event this last weekend etc. I try to read as much as I can and post where I can. I'd love to see dyno's proving any CAI making more HP, it would definitely validate the product.

Well I posted 10+ HP gains on my before and after dynos... With just the MDesign intake vs the air raid intake....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But the problem is this, how was the testing done.

We went through great lengths to perform testing as accurately as possible. This means ECT, ACT, Ambient conditions, oil temp, etc were all as close as possible to provide accurate testing, and then back it up with track tests.

The problem is most people that "self test" do not realize how small things can effect a test dramatically. therefor skewing their results, and often creating doubt about a good product, and faith in a useless product for the community as a whole.

Unfortunately, testing things and having accurate data has never really had an impact on whether the community believes in a product or not. As mentioned in here earlier, we constantly get berated for information about our claims (even though our claims always back themselves up), while other companies can just say "man, this is awesome, you need it" and people take them at their word. Never mind we have uninstalled "miracle upgrades" on these cars and had them run better and more consistent at the track.

At the end of the day, if someone is OK with putting on a part that has zero performance benefit, and usually a deficit due to the other required parts, then that's fine with us since it isn't creating a durability concern. We just want people to be educated about it rather than buying into hype, or thinking it will do something it won't.

 

[J-Will]

We went through great lengths to perform testing as accurately as possible. This means ECT, ACT, Ambient conditions, oil temp, etc were all as close as possible to provide accurate testing, and then back it up with track tests.

The problem is most people that "self test" do not realize how small things can effect a test dramatically. therefor skewing their results, and often creating doubt about a good product, and faith in a useless product for the community as a whole.

Unfortunately, testing things and having accurate data has never really had an impact on whether the community believes in a product or not. As mentioned in here earlier, we constantly get berated for information about our claims (even though our claims always back themselves up), while other companies can just say "man, this is awesome, you need it" and people take them at their word. Never mind we have uninstalled "miracle upgrades" on these cars and had them run better and more consistent at the track.

At the end of the day, if someone is OK with putting on a part that has zero performance benefit, and usually a deficit due to the other required parts, then that's fine with us since it isn't creating a durability concern. We just want people to be educated about it rather than buying into hype, or thinking it will do something it won't.

I appreciate the methods and approach to backing the products you offer.  Furthermore, continually coming to the board and explaining/ vouching for the products and outcomes even when members here challenge your findings.

I think most people (or at least myself) attempt to gather as much info from as many different sources as they can.  Relying on a single source is simply not a good approach.  And I think this is why LME needs to continually and actively take the approach they have in describing products, answering questions, and explaining results.

 

[bigmoneycloser]

Well these cars are speed density so no MAF so no issues there. As it's an auto you don't have engagement of the BoV during acceleration like a stick car due to lifting of the throttle. The cars notated are definitely stick vs our auto. I think it's a matter of hey those have ecoboost and this has an ecoboost so it must be the same.
I don't care either way, just want proof for the general population. There's no vendor slant to this request just hey if you're going to say it then prove it and this is a pretty big statement IMHO.

First...I respect all your info and efforts to push this platform forward. Without your efforts we'd be years behind still.

Second....I've only heard of and have quit reading anything here pertaining to the differences between certain parties. I DON'T CARE...I just like cars and want everyone to succeed.

When you comment on issues, it should carry added weight being the owner and parts supplier.

When MDESIGN brings out new CAI and handicaps a known performance killing CAI in comparison to tout 15 HP gain, I'd expect a comment in there wanting more testing at least to tout these #'s on my site.

I still feel MDesign CAI is the best one for us, but if there's no solid data needed here, why is it needed elsewhere.

I guess it's the consistency I'm looking for.

Rich

Sorry Rich, I didn't see those statements, I just saw this one. I've been working 5:30 until 2:30 day job and 3pm until 11pm M-F and Sat 6a to 10p getting new shop ready, getting cars read for an event this last weekend etc. I try to read as much as I can and post where I can. I'd love to see dyno's proving any CAI making more HP, it would definitely validate the product.

Well I posted 10+ HP gains on my before and after dynos... With just the MDesign intake vs the air raid intake....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But the problem is this, how was the testing done.

We went through great lengths to perform testing as accurately as possible. This means ECT, ACT, Ambient conditions, oil temp, etc were all as close as possible to provide accurate testing, and then back it up with track tests.

The problem is most people that "self test" do not realize how small things can effect a test dramatically. therefor skewing their results, and often creating doubt about a good product, and faith in a useless product for the community as a whole.

Unfortunately, testing things and having accurate data has never really had an impact on whether the community believes in a product or not. As mentioned in here earlier, we constantly get berated for information about our claims (even though our claims always back themselves up), while other companies can just say "man, this is awesome, you need it" and people take them at their word. Never mind we have uninstalled "miracle upgrades" on these cars and had them run better and more consistent at the track.

At the end of the day, if someone is OK with putting on a part that has zero performance benefit, and usually a deficit due to the other required parts, then that's fine with us since it isn't creating a durability concern. We just want people to be educated about it rather than buying into hype, or thinking it will do something it won't.

Well, since you quoted me on this and referenced my claims, let me fill you in.

I am a HUGE LMS fan! Every performance part on my Xsport came from LMS!(except my new intake)

I am not a big car guy, but love all my LMS performance upgrades and tell everyone about them! Unfortunately I am more of a check book guy Becuase of time and knowledge. I prefer to pay the experts to install my performance and aftermarket products...

With that said, I took a chance on a new product developed for our cars. I'm not a dyno wizard. But I had a before and after dyno done within 45 minutes of eachother first with the air raid and then the new MDesign intake. It did show 10+ HP gains.

There was not a scientific controlled setting, just a dyno run before and after.


It kinda annoys me that you discredit the "testing" of this intake without knowing how I had it tested? Maybe I had it done in the FORD test lab! You don't know. You didn't ask.
For someone who is always challenged here I would think you wouldn't do that. I know you don't like it when others do it to you.

With all that said, I challenge YOU LMS!
Spend the $350 for this new intake and test it in your controlled environment!
The developer is local. Allow him to watch you test it. Let the results speak for them self! There is no down side for you here.
If the intake tanks in your controlled setting, "your right" you win. If the intake performs well, you make an exclusive offer to sell, you also win.....
I bet he would give you one for free.
Test it on a stock vehicle and test it on a mod'ed vehicle..

Looking forward to see if your up to the challenge in the name of Accuair testing and advancing the platform..

Thanks
And much love from a FOREVER LMS customer!






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

That's what we strive to do. We have never been one to let resistance to what we have to say silence us. We want the community to move forward, rather than stagnate and get overrun with gimmick parts. This sometimes means going against what is popular, but we care about performance and durability above all else. Anything else ruins people's desire to modify and enjoy these cars.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

Well these cars are speed density so no MAF so no issues there. As it's an auto you don't have engagement of the BoV during acceleration like a stick car due to lifting of the throttle. The cars notated are definitely stick vs our auto. I think it's a matter of hey those have ecoboost and this has an ecoboost so it must be the same.
I don't care either way, just want proof for the general population. There's no vendor slant to this request just hey if you're going to say it then prove it and this is a pretty big statement IMHO.

First...I respect all your info and efforts to push this platform forward. Without your efforts we'd be years behind still.

Second....I've only heard of and have quit reading anything here pertaining to the differences between certain parties. I DON'T CARE...I just like cars and want everyone to succeed.

When you comment on issues, it should carry added weight being the owner and parts supplier.

When MDESIGN brings out new CAI and handicaps a known performance killing CAI in comparison to tout 15 HP gain, I'd expect a comment in there wanting more testing at least to tout these #'s on my site.

I still feel MDesign CAI is the best one for us, but if there's no solid data needed here, why is it needed elsewhere.

I guess it's the consistency I'm looking for.

Rich

Sorry Rich, I didn't see those statements, I just saw this one. I've been working 5:30 until 2:30 day job and 3pm until 11pm M-F and Sat 6a to 10p getting new shop ready, getting cars read for an event this last weekend etc. I try to read as much as I can and post where I can. I'd love to see dyno's proving any CAI making more HP, it would definitely validate the product.

Well I posted 10+ HP gains on my before and after dynos... With just the MDesign intake vs the air raid intake....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thats probably because you were losing 10 with the Airaid.

That being said, I don't even care if it doesn't make any power over stock as long as it doesn't lose power like the K&N. Its gorgeous so it will be a nice aesthetic upgrade for car shows.

if Livernois is up to the test challenge, maybe all of us concerned parties could donate some money towards science. Nothing is free in this world.