ACES IV - An effective octane booster and anti-wear additive?

Ive havent spent anytime looking at lor like u guys have...i basically check my knock sensor in my logs ..basically the tune was set up for 91...the oem left some headroom for spark advance that the knock sensor handles pretty quickly...then that trend is represented in lor which is like a global change applied to the spark tables...

I read lor like stft and ltft...the further from 0 then the more work that you need to the base table values...i could be wrong but thats how i see it

Ive read that -1 is good...but to me ..i would want to add a little spark so its not relying on the adaptives and learning...that way immediately after a reflash you are closer to where u need to be rather than having to wait
 
Thank you. That makes sense to me and is how I at least believed it worked. I am still curious if there is any indication in the ECU about what levels of knock actually trigger a LOR adjustment and if they are adjustable as that would account for our different experiences...
 
ecoboostsho said:
FoMoCoSHO said:
ecoboostsho said:
Dxlnt1 said:
I am glad that someone was able to scientifically qualify what I had been saying all along.

My experience with ACES is good. It is allowing me to run the 93 tune with only 91 fuel available. And the difference between those tunes is night and day.

On my truck, (2004 Yukon XL) I am seemingly picking up roughly 2 mpg using the ACES.

Mr. T, I do you notice your LOR and LTFT numbers all over the place? I have seen LOR go to -5 but KR stays maybe -2. The LTFT numbers are like a digital readout all over the place. My thinking is maybe the ECU cannot interpret the LOR with the ACES. But all other performance eta is good.
Click to expand...
Do you mean -0.5 for LOR?  It should never got to "-5" unless you are using a different formula?  LOR isn't actually measured but inferred from knock so I don't see how ACES could directly impact your LOR value or prevent the ECU from adjusting it.  If you are getting excessive knock the ECU will dial back the LOR...

FoMoCoSHO  - I know we've discussed this before but I have actually been playing with LOR quite a bit lately and if I hit +4 or greater KR the car instantly adjust the LOR...Same is true for -4 KR (or if you are using ignition correction then switch those numbers around...)  I believe you said your car had to see knock for some time before LOR was adjusted so I'm starting to think it is adjustable in the tune - which would hardly be surprising.  Maybe LME is just taking LOR down right away if it sees knock...
Click to expand...
ACES suppresses knock so id say it directly impacts LOR. Maybe ajp can tell us what stock behavior calls for. Knock hasn't affected LOR for me either car tuned or stock. A +7 on the 2013 didn't cause it to change. The way the car is now, KR is rare and a small amount.

I would like to know how it is supposed to behave though. When I bought the car it was at plus one until I added 93 and then it started moving to -1 so I'm confident it is functioning.
Click to expand...
I think we are saying the same thing - I just meant that there isn't an actual Octane Sensor (which I know you know)- Aces affects knock which in turn affects LOR - to me that isn't direct but I get what you are saying. :)

I would definitely be interested in anything AJP can tell us...I would like to understand how it works.
Click to expand...
There are a couple of snippets from Cobb and  Stratified in the tuning section.
 
ecoboostsho said:
Thank you. That makes sense to me and is how I at least believed it worked. I am still curious if there is any indication in the ECU about what levels of knock actually trigger a LOR adjustment and if they are adjustable as that would account for our different experiences...
Click to expand...

That I don't know. I haven't seen any thresholds for that but I'll take a look sometime I think that may be hard coded stuff and or algorithms that aren't exposed
 
ecoboostsho said:
Dxlnt1 said:
I am glad that someone was able to scientifically qualify what I had been saying all along.

My experience with ACES is good. It is allowing me to run the 93 tune with only 91 fuel available. And the difference between those tunes is night and day.

On my truck, (2004 Yukon XL) I am seemingly picking up roughly 2 mpg using the ACES.

Mr. T, I do you notice your LOR and LTFT numbers all over the place? I have seen LOR go to -5 but KR stays maybe -2. The LTFT numbers are like a digital readout all over the place. My thinking is maybe the ECU cannot interpret the LOR with the ACES. But all other performance eta is good.
Click to expand...
Do you mean -0.5 for LOR?  It should never got to "-5" unless you are using a different formula?  LOR isn't actually measured but inferred from knock so I don't see how ACES could directly impact your LOR value or prevent the ECU from adjusting it.  If you are getting excessive knock the ECU will dial back the LOR...

FoMoCoSHO  - I know we've discussed this before but I have actually been playing with LOR quite a bit lately and if I hit +4 or greater KR the car instantly adjust the LOR...Same is true for -4 KR (or if you are using ignition correction then switch those numbers around...)  I believe you said your car had to see knock for some time before LOR was adjusted so I'm starting to think it is adjustable in the tune - which would hardly be surprising.  Maybe LME is just taking LOR down right away if it sees knock...
Click to expand...

You are right. -.5 is the lowest rather highest LOR value I have seen. But the KR value is negative number 98% of time. Only time it goes positive is on deceleration. Which is consistent with log file here too.

I thought the LOR was an actual sensor that was reading fuel quality. If it is or it isn't, my theory was whatever sensor is making the initial read for it, because of the ACES maybe it is just dirty or unclear how to read it. The only time the LOR does that is usually upon refueling. THe LOR will always read different. In my case though, my car will sit for a few days after I refill. SO when I come back to it then it read the -1 again.

My understanding also ACES does NOT suppress knock, it enhances LOR. Then the ECU is tries to advance timing until knock is detected. Am I missing something?

 
I'm 95% confident (hey I could be wrong!) that there isn't an Octane sensor.  Perhaps someone who really knows can chime in.  From everything I've seen LOR is "inferred" based on the engine's ability at different throttle positions to not knock.  If it can advance timing and not see knock at various load levels then it "assumes" that you must be running a higher octane fuel and it will advance the LOR so you get to run more timing.  If it sees too much knock then again the ECU assumes you've put in some craptastic gas and moves the LOR in the appropriate direction.

If that is how it works then ACES would HAVE to prevent knock to enhance LOR since that is the only way it can affect it.  There might be other variables involved with LOR though but again I don't think an actual Octane sensor enters in to the picture.  That said I have no idea what ACES claims to do so I can't comment. 

It would not surprise me if the car paid particular attention to knock and adjusting the LOR value right after you fill up.  That would trigger the algorithm in the ECU since you obviously just put new gas in.

I am basing most of observations off of this article:
http://www.cobbtuning.com/ford-ecoboost-and-the-octane-adjust-ratio-monitor/

 
ecoboostsho said:
I'm 95% confident (hey I could be wrong!) that there isn't an Octane sensor.  Perhaps someone who really knows can chime in.  From everything I've seen LOR is "inferred" based on the engine's ability at different throttle positions to not knock.  If it can advance timing and not see knock at various load levels then it "assumes" that you must be running a higher octane fuel and it will advance the LOR so you get to run more timing.  If it sees too much knock then again the ECU assumes you've put in some craptastic gas and moves the LOR in the appropriate direction.

If that is how it works then ACES would HAVE to prevent knock to enhance LOR since that is the only way it can affect it.  There might be other variables involved with LOR though but again I don't think an actual Octane sensor enters in to the picture.  That said I have no idea what ACES claims to do so I can't comment. 

It would not surprise me if the car paid particular attention to knock and adjusting the LOR value right after you fill up.  That would trigger the algorithm in the ECU since you obviously just put new gas in.

I am basing most of observations off of this article:
http://www.cobbtuning.com/ford-ecoboost-and-the-octane-adjust-ratio-monitor/
Click to expand...

Im pretty sure you are right about lack of actual octane sensor. And I know we splitting hairs here, but you can't put the cart before the horse. The LOR has to be seen BEFORE timing can be adjusted. A crappy LOR and no knock present nets more timing. But hi number of knocks and a superior LOR nets less timing. If ALL of the "protective" features built into the ECU are calculations, inferred, or theoretical any glitch in the primary sensor (there would have to be at least 1 physical sensor) used for calculation, the ECU fail to safe mode and NOT run. Theoretically.

I also don't believe throttle position directly affects ANY performance parameter. That is a calibration and variable used for fuel delivery/demand. (I guess that does affect performance huh lol). 100% throttle and inadequate fuel delivery or rail pressure per flow curve nets engine cutting power. Theoretically!

I have seen this on my GMC when throttle position and throttle body doesn't calibrate properly at startup. So it disables the drive by wire and truck becomes useless until reset.

All of the sensors and calibrations are part of a HUGE formula to determine and dictate load and demand.
 
There is no octane sensor. Octane is merely a fuels resistance to knock.  The car uses algorithms based on raw ks output combined with deductive fuel logic to determine fuel composition and octane.
 
No octane sensor in these cars, knock-inferred only.  You get "fuel composition" sensors if Ford originally built the vehicle to run E85 or otherwise be an FFV.  Examples of such sensors are Ford Part 9C044-AA and 9C044-BA, made for the FFV Ranger 3.0L engine.

P0178 Description

Fuel Composition Sensors are used to determine the amount of ethanol alcohol in the gasoline. Normally, a gasoline engine should not have more than 10% ethanol alcohol in the fuel for proper operation. Some vehicles have a Flexible Fuel (FF) system on them that allow them to run on up to 85% ethanol alcohol in the fuel. The fuel composition sensor sends a frequency modulated signal to the engine controller which is proportional to the alcohol content of the fuel. The injector pulse width and the ignition timing are modified for the increased alcohol content. It takes almost twice the amount of alcohol compared to gasoline to produce the same power.

Read more: http://www.helpforcars.net/obd_codes/p0178.html
 
Dxlnt1 said:
AND you realize there is no knock sensor either! Only a microphone listening for certain frequencies in exhaust. As I stated the fuel is NOT changed but the ignition curve is modified.

http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/understanding-knock-and-ignition-corrections-in-your-high-performance-ecoboost-engine/
Click to expand...

I think this is something that many people new to tuning do not realize and should be pointed out in a "about tuning" sticky. I sometimes see people obsessing over some random KR event, they need to realize that road noise, a bump in the road, road debris etc can set off the knock sensor. I do my pulls the same place every time, imagine if there was a bump in that road and I was not aware it was the cause of a KR event LOL.  Its one of many reasons you can get a better tune on the Dyno.
 
Scott4957 said:
Dxlnt1 said:
AND you realize there is no knock sensor either! Only a microphone listening for certain frequencies in exhaust. As I stated the fuel is NOT changed but the ignition curve is modified.

http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/understanding-knock-and-ignition-corrections-in-your-high-performance-ecoboost-engine/
Click to expand...

I think this is something that many people new to tuning do not realize and should be pointed out in a "about tuning" sticky. I sometimes see people obsessing over some random KR event, they need to realize that road noise, a bump in the road, road debris etc can set off the knock sensor. I do my pulls the same place every time, imagine if there was a bump in that road and I was not aware it was the cause of a KR event LOL.  Its one of many reasons you can get a better tune on the Dyno.
Click to expand...
I disagree with that last statement completely.  Data logs and timeslips are highly effective over a much broader range of operating conditions.
 
That's true. A better tune is not necessarily one that makes peak power. I should have said you can make peak power "just a number"
 
Well there IS a knock sensor...it just happens to be a microphone. Agreed on random KR events though.  I used to have knock spikes at the shift in a previous car but determined that it was just the noise from shifting setting off the "knock" sensor.  That said knock sensors and the software that processes the signal have gotten significantly better at identifying these types of events.  I trust mine. ;)
 
Dxlnt1 said:
AND you realize there is no knock sensor either! Only a microphone listening for certain frequencies in exhaust. As I stated the fuel is NOT changed but the ignition curve is modified.
http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/understanding-knock-and-ignition-corrections-in-your-high-performance-ecoboost-engine/
Click to expand...
"Modern cars such as the one above have well tuned “microphones” called knock sensors that pick up on these sounds and react very quickly to stop detonation when it starts. The 4 cylinder Ecoboost in the Focus ST has two of these little guys."
 
Scott4957 said:
Dxlnt1 said:
AND you realize there is no knock sensor either! Only a microphone listening for certain frequencies in exhaust. As I stated the fuel is NOT changed but the ignition curve is modified.

http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/understanding-knock-and-ignition-corrections-in-your-high-performance-ecoboost-engine/
Click to expand...

I think this is something that many people new to tuning do not realize and should be pointed out in a "about tuning" sticky. I sometimes see people obsessing over some random KR event, they need to realize that road noise, a bump in the road, road debris etc can set off the knock sensor. I do my pulls the same place every time, imagine if there was a bump in that road and I was not aware it was the cause of a KR event LOL.  Its one of many reasons you can get a better tune on the Dyno.
Click to expand...
Little bit off topic but there is also a RRD Rough road detection system to eliminate false misfire indications due to the road condition,the RRD uses data from the ABS Wheel speed sensors for estimating the severity of the rough road.  Z
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

D
Boostane octane booster
Replies
0
Views
7K
Dxlnt1
D
P
2016 Taurus Police Ecoboost problem
Replies
6
Views
3K
SHOdded
S
D
2011 SHO for sale
Replies
9
Views
242
SHOdded
S
jmarreroi
2017 explorer sport throttle body
Replies
2
Views
8K
jmarreroi
jmarreroi
C
my 2017 SHO w/PP
2 3 4
Replies
65
Views
27K
SHOdded
S
Back
Top