Boost leak help

[FiveLeeter918]

Hey guys, about to slam my head into a wall so figured I'd come and poll the audience for input. Life is busy these days and don't have a full weekend to troubleshoot so looking for potential ideas ya'll can think of.

Backgound:
- 2013 Ford Taurus SHO, 72k miles
- XDI-35 hpfp w E30 tune, EPP hot pipes w/ stock BPVs, Gearhead intercooler, BBK throttle body, Airaid Intake, Stainless Works Downpipes, stock catback

Car has been tuned since 22k miles. About 5k miles ago I popped a CEL for a large EVAP leak. Decided to datalog and found that my fuel trims were 1.09 at idle, 1.14 cruising, and 1.32 (yea) at wot and I was now only seeing 12-15 psi instead of the 18 I was getting previously. Used IDS to cycle the purge valve and found it to be bad. Replaced it, no more light but the fuel trims and boost issues remained.

Did a pressure/smoke test and found a few leaking couplers and also found a crack in the oem throttle body so replaced it. Fuel trims dropped to 1.06 at idle, 1.09 cruising, and 1.24 wot. This week I replaced the front and rear pcv valves after finding the rear one to be bad, and as of today (cleared KAM yesterday morning) this is my data:

stft idle - 1.00
stft cruise - 1.06
stft wot - 0.94-0.98
ltft cruise - 1.00
ltft wot - 1.13
commanding 0.81 lambda, seeing 0.87-0.81 wot
hpfp 17.57 mpa (2550 psi)
wastegates are at 95%, were in the 60s before
commanding 232 kpa, only seeing 200 kpa

I replaced the spark plugs last week just to check, but it appears that I have a pretty big leak that can't seem to be found with smoke or positive pressure.

And before anyone mentions the tune, we've tuned this setup many times with great luck, so the chances that our tune is messed up isn't likely.

Last log before I popped the CEL had wastegates around 60% and boost was only about 5 kpa off commanded with near perfect fuel trims.

I was tossing ideas back and forth with a friend that's an ASE tech, and he suggested possibly needing to replace the boost solenoid, but I wasn't really seeing any issues similar to this when checking.

I scoped the impellers when I installed the downpipes and hot pipes and didn't notice any damage or play in the shaft or vanes.

Thoughts? Car is no slouch, it still runs 12.42 @ 110 consistently but feel it should have a lot more in it.

 

[ZSHO]

It could be a waste-gate hose that is leaking coming from the Boost reference solenoid too Front or Rear actuator! I think you referenced changing both PCV valves and think you meant both front & rear BOV! Z

Check the 1/4 Hoses to verify they are not leaking and also make certain its securely connected to charge pipe with a mini hose clamp which Ford never updated!

Hoses from Boost reference solenoid

 

[FiveLeeter918]

nope, meant the PCV valves. Replaced the brown on and then installed the revised green in place of the black pass-through.

Both BPVs/BOVs looked fine when I installed the hot pipes, and no bubbles when doing the positive pressure/soapy water test.

 

[FiveLeeter918]

See attached for log snapshots between 12-8 and yesterday.

12-8 log was just Airaid intake and E30.

Installed GH intercooler and downpipes in February and started having issues shortly after. Installed hot pipes and throttle body to remedy leaks found during smoke test, but issues still persist.

We've tuned several cars with the GH intercooler without issue, so don't think it's tune related.

12-8 log has LTFTs at 1.00 and STFTs are 0.98-1.02 at wot.

Ideas?

 

[SHOdded]

When you scoped the turbos, you verified the wastegate actuators were working.  Not a common item to break on the 3.5, but very common on the 2.0.

I would try the BOVs next, see if maybe the springs are not holding pressure.  Usually it is the diaphragm that goes rather than the spring.  The spring has been known to go on the 2.0, not so much the 3.5.

Hard to see how the noisemaker is the problem, but if you still have it, maybe just cap that port instead and see.

Could be a failing purge valve as well.

This is what the manual has to say:
P0455 - Evaporative Emission System Leak Detected (Gross Leak/No Flow)

Description:  The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the complete evaporative emission (EVAP) control system for no purge flow, the presence of a large fuel vapor leak, or multiple small fuel vapor leaks. System failure occurs when no purge flow, which is attributed to fuel vapor blockages or restrictions, a large fuel vapor leak, or multiple fuel vapor leaks are detected by the EVAP running loss monitor test with the engine running, but not at idle. 

Possible Causes: 
Aftermarket EVAP hardware that does not conform to the required specifications
Disconnected or cracked fuel EVAP canister tube, EVAP purge valve outlet tube, or EVAP return tube
EVAP purge valve stuck closed
Damaged EVAP canister
Damaged, missing or loosely installed fuel filler cap
Capless fuel tank filler pipe damaged or not sealed correctly (if equipped)
Loose fuel vapor hose/tube connections to the EVAP system components
Blockages or restrictions in the fuel vapor hoses/tubes
Fuel vapor control valve tube assembly or fuel vapor vent valve assembly blocked
EVAP canister vent valve stuck open
Mechanically inoperative fuel tank pressure (FTP) sensor 

 

[FiveLeeter918]

When you scoped the turbos, you verified the wastegate actuators were working.  Not a common item to break on the 3.5, but very common on the 2.0.

I would try the BOVs next, see if maybe the springs are not holding pressure.  Usually it is the diaphragm that goes rather than the spring.  The spring has been known to go on the 2.0, not so much the 3.5.

Hard to see how the noisemaker is the problem, but if you still have it, maybe just cap that port instead and see.

yea actuators are my next check, gonna hook them up to the air compressor and make sure they are both opening correctly and that there are no cracks in the line

noisemaker went away with the hot pipes.

 

[FiveLeeter918]

When you scoped the turbos, you verified the wastegate actuators were working.  Not a common item to break on the 3.5, but very common on the 2.0.

I would try the BOVs next, see if maybe the springs are not holding pressure.  Usually it is the diaphragm that goes rather than the spring.  The spring has been known to go on the 2.0, not so much the 3.5.

Hard to see how the noisemaker is the problem, but if you still have it, maybe just cap that port instead and see.

Could be a failing purge valve as well.

This is what the manual has to say:
P0455 - Evaporative Emission System Leak Detected (Gross Leak/No Flow)

Description:  The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the complete evaporative emission (EVAP) control system for no purge flow, the presence of a large fuel vapor leak, or multiple small fuel vapor leaks. System failure occurs when no purge flow, which is attributed to fuel vapor blockages or restrictions, a large fuel vapor leak, or multiple fuel vapor leaks are detected by the EVAP running loss monitor test with the engine running, but not at idle. 

Possible Causes: 
Aftermarket EVAP hardware that does not conform to the required specifications
Disconnected or cracked fuel EVAP canister tube, EVAP purge valve outlet tube, or EVAP return tube
EVAP purge valve stuck closed
Damaged EVAP canister
Damaged, missing or loosely installed fuel filler cap
Capless fuel tank filler pipe damaged or not sealed correctly (if equipped)
Loose fuel vapor hose/tube connections to the EVAP system components
Blockages or restrictions in the fuel vapor hoses/tubes
Fuel vapor control valve tube assembly or fuel vapor vent valve assembly blocked
EVAP canister vent valve stuck open
Mechanically inoperative fuel tank pressure (FTP) sensor

bad purge valve is what triggered all of this.

 

[SHOdded]

All is well then?

 

[avidmotion]

yea! glad it fixed, where is the second or front pcv ? I changed the brown one in the back already...

 

[FiveLeeter918]

All is well then?

no haha the CEL for the purge valve is what prompted me to datalog and discover the other issues. I changed the purge valve out which got rid of the CEL but still have the wonky fuel trims and boost bleed off issue.

 

[FiveLeeter918]

yea! glad it fixed, where is the second or front pcv ? I changed the brown one in the back already...

Not fixed yet, looking for other ideas. The front pcv is really a pass through tube no check valve, I just changed it because the O-ring bubbled when sprayed with soapy water.

 

[ZSHO]

Ahh! Front PCV Tube/elbow! New Gaskets installed with DP! I noticed you have the SW Catted DP and wanted to know if you needed to modify the Front 02 sensor NPT Bungs since your issues started after the DP & IC install! TOL! Z

 

[FiveLeeter918]

front and rear pcv valve's changed this week, yes has to relocate the front wideband since I'm a PP. New gaskets were used at the turbos.

 

[FiveLeeter918]

Welp following up, went back to 91 to eliminate any fuel trims from that, and had a buddy come over Saturday night to troubleshoot. Installed my boost leak tester, pressured up to 5 psi and you could hear a faint noise. Went to 10 and it was very apparent that we had a leak.

Turned out the boot T-clamp popped off the rear turbo which was affecting wastegate readout. All fixed!

 

[802SHO]

Glad to hear you got it fixed!

 

[ecoboostsho]

Welp following up, went back to 91 to eliminate any fuel trims from that, and had a buddy come over Saturday night to troubleshoot. Installed my boost leak tester, pressured up to 5 psi and you could hear a faint noise. Went to 10 and it was very apparent that we had a leak.

Turned out the boot T-clamp popped off the rear turbo which was affecting wastegate readout. All fixed!

Follow up ? How do you test for boost leaks on a twin turbo setup like the SHO? I've seen some YouTube videos where you cap off the turbo and pressurize everything but assume you would have to do it to both turbos? Or is there another way? TIA

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[ZSHO]

There are many reputable shops that perform a Smoke test! Bottle of soap is another alternative with water preferably kids (Mr Bubbles) and spray around the engine bay until you notice any bubbles forming. Z


Here's the PIC of the TURBOCHARGER VACUUM HOSE LINE TUBE AKA - Rubber Valve Assembly as mentioned earlier for reference..I'm just TOL

https://fordpartsgiant.com/parts/ford-valve-asy-rubber_dg1z-9961-a.html?Vin=1FAHP2KT5DG183206&Filter=()&Location=turbocharger,,9961

 

[ecoboostsho]

There are many reputable shops that perform a Smoke test! Bottle of soap is another alternative with water preferably kids (Mr Bubbles) and spray around the engine bay until you notice any bubbles forming. Z


Here's the PIC of the TURBOCHARGER VACUUM HOSE LINE TUBE AKA - Rubber Valve Assembly as mentioned earlier for reference..I'm just TOL

https://fordpartsgiant.com/parts/ford-valve-asy-rubber_dg1z-9961-a.html?Vin=1FAHP2KT5DG183206&Filter=()&Location=turbocharger,,9961

Thanks *. Well my car is actually running just fine now stock. It fixed itself at some point which bugs me even more. I'm leaving it alone for now although I still feel the wastegates duty is high to maintain stock boost levels. I will probably go back to tunes and see if it can keep up.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[ZSHO]

I guess you can always try to (pinch) the wastegate hose leading to the wastegate with locking pliers in order to determine if one of your Turbos are going bad!
If you notice the Boost level is back to normal during this procedure then one of your turbos need replacing and remove the pliers..

I would also try to rule out a plugged CAC.

It's a bit of Trial & error and proceed with CAUTION rule may apply!!  Z

 

[ecoboostsho]

I guess you can always try to (pinch) the wastegate hose leading to the wastegate with locking pliers in order to determine if one of your Turbos are going bad!
If you notice the Boost level is back to normal during this procedure then one of your turbos need replacing and remove the pliers..

I would also try to rule out a plugged CAC.

It's a bit of Trial & error and proceed with CAUTION rule may apply!!  Z

Thanks Z. I've been patiently troubleshooting the last week. I've ruled out the TIP and MAP sensors unfortunately because those would have been easy. I took my air compressor and pressurizes the hose leading to both wastegates with about 12 psi and both wastegates moved and I verified there weren't any slow leaks so the hoses and connections are solid. I got both wastegates to physically move however the back one make a slight noise which makes me think it may be sticking.

I do have some general questions I'm hoping someone can answer specific to the Ecoboost. Are the wastegates normally closed or open? I know when the car hits 100% duty cycle on the boost solenoid that  I thought it was sending boost to the wastegates to close them fully so the turbos spin up. Since these are pressure actuated that would mean they are open normally? Or am I getting this backward LOL...

Unless the boost solenoid is bad I most likely have a sticking rear turbo wastegate.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk