Consolidated Ecoboost Fueling thread

[05yellowgt]

Nothing new on my end. I did read that HPFPUPGRADE.COM is working on upgrading stock 2.0 Ecoboost HPFP's and want to get into the f150 EB market too.

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[4DRHTRD]

Just an update on this I was down to 1/2 a tank of gas of E85, filled up with 91 E10 octane (8 gallons) which puts me at E48. I am able to drive the car up to 16 psi (around 520HP) with no auxiliary fueling, injectors are unplugged. Anything above 16psi and the car doesn't like it. This is with my dual in tank fuel pumps and a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator - I'm at 60psi at idle and around 75-80 psi at WOT in the low pressure side.

Just FYI for MOST guys this is plenty of fuel. I don't know if this upgrade would be enough to run straight E85 on stock turbos BUT the Mazdaspeed guys believe that E48 is the break even point for the benefits of E85. I'm at 23 degrees of timing right now with no knock.

Remember this is transverse motors, the trucks have plenty of low pressure pump AND you can easily swap in a Walbro 420 or 450 pump in the stock location.

 

[05yellowgt]

That is great info Mike.  If Blender bumps were just more common this would be easy for most of us to do

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

I've been thinking there are fueling differences between the 2 gens of turbo SHO. I routinely see 2500+PSI at the rail....I've seen almost 2700 PSI a couple of times. This conflicts with Ford's stated max rail pressure of 2150 PSI and the experiences of other Ecoboosters here.

I found out some fuel system info from my buddy who works at the Ford dealership.

2013's have a different LPFP than the 2010-12's.

1st gen LPFP run at a fixed 65PSI

2013+ is variable that runs between 51 and 75 psi.

Taurus 2.0 ecoboost uses 2013 setup also.

Non Turbo 3.5 uses 2010-12 SHO fuel setup.

He said he will continue to research as he has time.

If anyone has any specific questions, let me know and I will ask him.

 

[redsand]

Just an update on this I was down to 1/2 a tank of gas of E85, filled up with 91 E10 octane (8 gallons) which puts me at E48. I am able to drive the car up to 16 psi (around 520HP) with no auxiliary fueling, injectors are unplugged. Anything above 16psi and the car doesn't like it. This is with my dual in tank fuel pumps and a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator - I'm at 60psi at idle and around 75-80 psi at WOT in the low pressure side.

Just FYI for MOST guys this is plenty of fuel. I don't know if this upgrade would be enough to run straight E85 on stock turbos BUT the Mazdaspeed guys believe that E48 is the break even point for the benefits of E85. I'm at 23 degrees of timing right now with no knock.

Remember this is transverse motors, the trucks have plenty of low pressure pump AND you can easily swap in a Walbro 420 or 450 pump in the stock location.

Mike,

I'm getting ready to fill up again and am planning on doing a heavier mixture of the E85 mixture of E85 this weekend I've done up to 12 gallons (36 gal tank) and the truck really seemed to respond well.  Added a decent amount of timing compared to what I normally see.  Did you add timing to the tune or did you let the ecu do it on it's own?

 

[4DRHTRD]

Just an update on this I was down to 1/2 a tank of gas of E85, filled up with 91 E10 octane (8 gallons) which puts me at E48. I am able to drive the car up to 16 psi (around 520HP) with no auxiliary fueling, injectors are unplugged. Anything above 16psi and the car doesn't like it. This is with my dual in tank fuel pumps and a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator - I'm at 60psi at idle and around 75-80 psi at WOT in the low pressure side.

Just FYI for MOST guys this is plenty of fuel. I don't know if this upgrade would be enough to run straight E85 on stock turbos BUT the Mazdaspeed guys believe that E48 is the break even point for the benefits of E85. I'm at 23 degrees of timing right now with no knock.

Remember this is transverse motors, the trucks have plenty of low pressure pump AND you can easily swap in a Walbro 420 or 450 pump in the stock location.

Mike,

I'm getting ready to fill up again and am planning on doing a heavier mixture of the E85 mixture of E85 this weekend I've done up to 12 gallons (36 gal tank) and the truck really seemed to respond well.  Added a decent amount of timing compared to what I normally see.  Did you add timing to the tune or did you let the ecu do it on it's own?

We did it in the tune, I was at 28 degrees of timing

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[redsand]

Hmmm....well I might have to talk to Torrie about doing this.  I was seeing 16 or so just from adding it to the tank.  The boost on my current tune is just under 17 so I'll see how this goes. 

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

I'm trying to find as much information about the 3.5 Ecoboost DI fuel system as possible.  I'd like to get it all in one thread for convenience purposes.


The Fuel system that powers the 3.5 Ecoboost is made up of two sub-systems.  Those systems are the low pressure feed system and the high pressure Direct Injection system.  The low pressure system consists of a returnless setup, consisting of an in tank pump that delivers fuel to the High Pressure Fuel Pump (HPFP).  The HPFP is a mechanical pump with an electronically controlled pressure relief system that manages the fuel pressure delivered to the Direct Injectors.  The pressure can be regulated up to 2150PSI.


4DRHTRD has created a solution to the limits to the HPFP issue by creating an Auxiliary Fuel system by modifying a stock intake manifold to accept port fuel injectors and used a stand alone fuel controller to handle the port injectors.  A good link to read up on it can be found here.  http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=462.msg2519#msg2519


Now, let us try to dig into the HPFP itself.  It is sourced from Bosch and is mechanical in nature.  It is driven by an extra cam lobe on one of the cams on the driver's side head (on the F150).  This cam lobe is 4 sided, meaning that each revolution of the crankshaft, actuates the HPFP 4 times.  The system has an electronically controlled bypass to regulate the fuel pressure up to a maximum of 2150psi.  I've been digging to find specs on the fuel pump itself and haven't found any definitive information.  The following thread quotes some flow numbers that I will show below.  http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/f-150-274/914450-2013-ecoboost-f150-dyno-today.html


Here are the numbers from that thread.

Based on the data from Ford the HPFP is capable of flowing a maximum of the following fuel volume in lb/hr vs RPM:
RPM - LB/HR
500 - 30.1606
1000 - 60.3211
1500 - 90.4817
2000 - 120.6423
2500 - 150.8028
3000 - 180.9634
3500 - 211.1239
4000 - 241.2845
4500 - 271.4451
5000 - 301.6056
5500 - 331.7662
6000 - 361.9268

It is RPM based since the HPFP flows x volume per cam revolution.
Given the flow rate you can calculate the Max BHP attainable (without draining the fuel rails) vs RPM.

Converting those numbers from LB/hr to L/hr of gasoline you come up with a maximum flow potential of about 227L/hr of gasoline.  227L/hr can support somewhere somewhere in the 500-550Bhp depending on the BSFC of the 3.5 Ecoboost. (something I would love to know as I have looked for hours and can't find the BSFC for a stock 3.5 Ecoboost motor).  That would jive right about what we are seeing as far as data logs on most tuned Ecoboost 3.5's.  Even Boost only tunes can show the fuel pressure starting to fall off, though not to the point of leaning out the motor.

Doing some math, I can work backwards and figure out that the stock pump flows .15 cubic centimeters of fuel per stroke.  I have found a Bosch website that lists a series of HPFP's that all flow 1.1 cubic centimeters of fuel per stroke.  site can be found here. http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/language2/html/2832.htm

IF (and I'm making some assumptions based on my crude math of the flow of the stock pump) my math is right, the Bosch Motorsports pumps should provide around 2500lb/Hr of fuel at the same 6000rpm.  In my mind that should provide all the fuel we'd ever need, provided it can keep up the volume and pressure.



Finally getting to the Direct injectors themselves, I have found no flow data for them.  Hopefully we can add that later as we learn more.



Edit: added additional low pressure fuel pump info.  Thanks to EcoBrick Bob!

It has been determined that the above numbers are for the EB F-150 DI pump and system.  Has anyone done a test on what our EV cars actually have for volume at various RPM?

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

4DR, have you come up with a LPFP in tank option to add more fuel to our stock lines so HPFP has all the fuel that it can handle?  Know you have been working on options. Know the issue is the size and design of the LPFP carrier. 

 

[redsand]

Well ran and added some E85 to the tank, I'll throw out that I don't think it's true E85 since they have added a sticker to the the pump that says minimum E70.  I threw in a little over 15 gal of it and topped off with 91.  There definitely is a difference in the timing the truck uses when just driving around.  Typically when accelerating under half throttle and boost I see negative 4-6* of timing now I see 7+.  Didn't do any WOT, it's -7 out and the roads are a mess, but I'm sure that has also improved. 

 

[Josephm]

Did i read that correctly that you are running 15 Gal of E85? 15/18.6, that's an 81 percent mix. Be careful to monitor A/F, the mazdaspeed's that ran over 50 percent mix's got sticky fuel pump issues

 

[redsand]

My tank is 36 gallons. 
Bob, would a stock F150 pump work in your basket?  I had mine flow tested at DW it was flowing 290lph at 40psi I believe.  I see from the pictures you guys don't have much for working room. 

 

[Josephm]

that's a huge tank. disregard previous statement.

 

[4DRHTRD]

Did i read that correctly that you are running 15 Gal of E85? 15/18.6, that's an 81 percent mix. Be careful to monitor A/F, the mazdaspeed's that ran over 50 percent mix's got sticky fuel pump issues

No issues with my car for 2K miles on full E85, just FYI

 

[4DRHTRD]

My tank is 36 gallons. 
Bob, would a stock F150 pump work in your basket?  I had mine flow tested at DW it was flowing 290lph at 40psi I believe.  I see from the pictures you guys don't have much for working room. 

No those pumps won't work in ours, you have Walbro 430 with the ledge, we have a regular Walbro 255 body.

 

[redsand]

Also I thought the MS's later discovered it wasn't the E85 causing the gunk issue? 
In any case, my lambda hasn't really looked any different under various throttle input than when I'm running a normal tank of gas.  It does kick the mileage in the balls though and with it being -7 out that doesn't help either. 

 

[Josephm]

Last i heard, they never figured out what caused the gunk, but they just know that past 50%, they had issues. I haven't been reading much on the mazda forums since i got my EB since they make you pay to read everything witch is BS.

 

[Josephm]

Did i read that correctly that you are running 15 Gal of E85? 15/18.6, that's an 81 percent mix. Be careful to monitor A/F, the mazdaspeed's that ran over 50 percent mix's got sticky fuel pump issues

No issues with my car for 2K miles on full E85, just FYI

Your flex? I never seen you ran a 100% E85???

 

[redsand]

Wow, they make you pay to read the forum? That is BS.  I will probably try a higher amount of E85 next go around since I doubt this was true E85. They do sell E40 or 45, at that station so I may just try a full tank of that depending.

 

[Josephm]

Ya they have a VIP section, witch is ridiculous to being with