Deatschwerks Developing EcoBoost Injectors In Time For 2015 Mustang

[FoMoCoSHO]

Please let it be true..

http://www.stangtv.com/news/deatschwerks-developing-ecoboost-injectors-in-time-for-2015-mustang/

 

[bpd1151]

Nice find. Good info to have.

 

[ajpturbo]

Doesn't fix the fuel pressure dropping and that's the real problem...that is a bandaid attempt that many people opt for to mask or when some aren't aware of the underlying pressure problem

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

Doesn't fix the fuel pressure dropping and that's the real problem...that is a bandaid attempt that many people opt for to mask or when some aren't aware of the underlying pressure problem

I have read some data indicating E-85 has a higher viscosity than straight gas which translates into friction and backpressure.

If this can relieve some stess on the pump, I'm all for it.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

Livernois has also alluded to the excessive sulfer in US gas slowing down the fuel system as well, and I think it is part of the puzzle.

Looks like we may all get a FRP boost shortly...

"The proposed standards will reduce gasoline sulfur levels by more than 60 percent – down to 10 parts per million (ppm) in 2017"

http://ethanolproducer.com/articles/9709/epa-tier-3-rules-lower-sulfur-content-assume-e15-to-replace-e10

 

[Airbornemaikai]

Dated Jan 21st 2014. What ever happened with this as the mustangs are already selling?

 

[SHOnUup]

Interesting

Rich

 

[IHeartGroceries]

Have to say, I find fueling limitations significantly less attributable to emission based qualities than to mechanical deficiencies.
Already, sulfur caps are fairly low. And it's like alot of the other mandates, real values are generally maintained low, in order to keep a nice cushion from mandated caps. For example, sulfur in ULSD stays considerably lower than the standard 15 ppm cap. I believe LSD has now been fully phased out and transitioned to ULSD, 15 ppm or less.

Gasoline is similar. I've never seen more than 30 ppm in the RFG around here. Though, our PQI standards don't require regular sulfur analysis in any but diesel fuel.

Also, if you want to maintain high lubricity in gas, always buy premium branded. Shell, for example, has the highest treat rate of their additive in their VPower. Additive, in addition to detergent priperties, lubricates and offers anti-gumming agents and other qualities as well. Seeing as ethanol in fuel is pure alcohol, with a denaturant and no additive, I'm not sure how it offers much lubricity.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

I always run shell 93 as my base fuel. But as the E goes up, frp gets harder to maintain so there are physical properties of the corn that cause the slowdown.

 

[ajpturbo]

I always run shell 93 as my base fuel. But as the E goes up, frp gets harder to maintain so there are physical properties of the corn that cause the slowdown.

Fomo that's not the reason...as ethanol concentration goes up so does the fuel demand...you need more fuel to maintain your commanded lambda...that's why fuel economy suffers on e85...stoich for e85 is very low...9 something in afr I think...

It's why if your fuel system was at the edge of capacity on gas you have no prayer of running e85

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

I always run shell 93 as my base fuel. But as the E goes up, frp gets harder to maintain so there are physical properties of the corn that cause the slowdown.

Fomo that's not the reason...as ethanol concentration goes up so does the fuel demand...you need more fuel to maintain your commanded lambda...that's why fuel economy suffers on e85...stoich for e85 is very low...9 something in afr I think...

It's why if your fuel system was at the edge of capacity on gas you have no prayer of running e85

I understand demand goes up. But as the E goes up pump output decreases. So double jeopardy. You can see this behavior in logs, min and max fuel pressure.

It is easier to pump 93 through the system than the corn.

 

[ajpturbo]

What are u logging to see pump output?

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

What are u logging to see pump output?

Commanded pump pressure
Actual pump pressure
furl rail pressure

 

[ajpturbo]

I'd have to see it....I would say the pump pressure is also related to the high fuel demand....What is the pump duty cycle?

When fuel demand is high the pressure will fall everywhere

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

I'd have to see it....I would say the pump pressure is also related to the high fuel demand....What is the pump duty cycle?

When fuel demand is high the pressure will fall everywhere

Don't know on the duty cycle, I will add it to the parameters.

So basically what you are saying is it is draining the rail?

One thing is for sure, I will let the Mustang and ST guys find out the results before I drop a grand on injectors.

 

[panther427]

That's exactly right.

 

[ajpturbo]

I'd have to see it....I would say the pump pressure is also related to the high fuel demand....What is the pump duty cycle?

When fuel demand is high the pressure will fall everywhere

So basically what you are saying is it is draining the rail?

Yes...I guess I could be wrong or even that higher ethanol is harder for the pump to flow the fluid but I do know that E85 is taxing to a fuel system and I've seen this before, however, in different applications.

A lot of people think they have an injector size problem when in reality they have a fuel pressure problem. Larger injectors can be a bandaid for an inadequate fuel pressure. i.e. larger injectors can flow more fuel at a given pulsewidth with lower pressure.

The new coyote mustangs no longer have a fuel rail pressure sensor. I added one and logged it externally though my X3. People think when they are maxing out the fuel system with forced induction they think they need bigger injectors, and sometimes they do but they also don't see how bad fuel pressure is dropping off under boost because it can't be logged in the new 5.0 mustangs. If fuel pressure could be maintained larger injectors might not be necessary.

With the high fuel pressure of direct injection operation it's even more critical I think to maintain it. And it's clear that there is a fuel pressure problem with the ecoboost platform when overboosting from stock. I've seen my rail pressure drop to 500 psi and it was commanding 2100. Now that was at 24 psi in the upper RPM's. But more ethanol would do the same thing at lower boost levels because you have to flow much more fuel...Not sure how much sense that makes...I babble

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

I'd have to see it....I would say the pump pressure is also related to the high fuel demand....What is the pump duty cycle?

When fuel demand is high the pressure will fall everywhere

So basically what you are saying is it is draining the rail?

Yes...I guess I could be wrong or even that higher ethanol is harder for the pump to flow the fluid but I do know that E85 is taxing to a fuel system and I've seen this before, however, in different applications.

A lot of people think they have an injector size problem when in reality they have a fuel pressure problem. Larger injectors can be a bandaid for an inadequate fuel pressure. i.e. larger injectors can flow more fuel at a given pulsewidth with lower pressure.

The new coyote mustangs no longer have a fuel rail pressure sensor. I added one and logged it externally though my X3. People think when they are maxing out the fuel system with forced induction they think they need bigger injectors, and sometimes they do but they also don't see how bad fuel pressure is dropping off under boost because it can't be logged in the new 5.0 mustangs. If fuel pressure could be maintained larger injectors might not be necessary.

With the high fuel pressure of direct injection operation it's even more critical I think to maintain it. And it's clear that there is a fuel pressure problem with the ecoboost platform when overboosting from stock. I've seen my rail pressure drop to 500 psi and it was commanding 2100. Now that was at 24 psi in the upper RPM's. But more ethanol would do the same thing at lower boost levels because you have to flow much more fuel...Not sure how much sense that makes...I babble

Babble away, the more input the better which i why i went on a research rampage when LME alluded to high sulfur being an issue with US fuels. That led to the viscosity, friction, and back pressure info... things I had never considered before.

I've never seen fuel pressure that low but its been low enough this winter to make the car very unhappy and led me to blend down to 15%. I will probably have to go down the WMI road before its all over, but I'm gonna look at everything else in the meantime.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

I wonder if we have the HPD5, or the HPD5EVO with increased flow rate...

http://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/media/en/ubk_europe/db_application/downloads/pdf/antrieb/de_5/gs_datenblatt_hochdruckpumpe_hdp5_de.pdf

 

[ajpturbo]

That's pretty cool..Guess we'd have to look at the pump....If we have the NON evo pump it looks like it would be a 7% improvement going to 1.2 from 1.12 cc/R......Is that cc per revolution?