GDI engines & catch can use

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kbeck59

New member
This article from 2 1/2 years ago is pretty much stating the same points about the GDI  design problems we've been reading about  and why a good quality baffled OCC can help curtail the problems all GDI engines have and that the issues are compounded in turbocharged applications .
It is also important to note that GDI egines are in use primarily from an engineering standpoint to meet the stringent emissions requirements of the US  EPA  and Federal CAFE Mpg requirements AND the other worldwide environmental organizations .

Article link  : http://www.veloster.org/forum/9-hyundai-veloster-engine-transmission/1843-importance-oil-catch-can-gdi.html
 
Don't wanna stir anything up... but this "article" is just a post on a Hyundai forum and old as the OP points out... like the posts on our discussion here... For me the topic is dead until there is new info... no one is wrong... no one is right....no one is disputing any of the explanations and finding Tracy posted... all of us are ignorant of the facts in the Ford 3.5 TT transverse GDI as yet...  Let's move on or keep the discussion in the 3 threads we already had... one of them is 9 pages.  JMO

Each will decide...

 
Good read, SR!  Tom is correct that we need data directly on the EB engines, and that this topic should be, if anything, incorporated into the EB PCV thread.

However, very good point about the increased vulnerability of the turbocharged engine.  So we should add a turbocharger teardown to the list of evidence gathering tasks, to look at the compressor wheel (and rule out leaky turbo seals).
 
SwampRat said:
Another Damned good read on Why OCC 's use on GDI engines is a good idea and Why OEM's don't use them and why .
Straight forward and simple .
http://www.squidoo.com/oil-catch-cans
Click to expand...
Good basic primers and easy reads.  Tracy's explanation is better here in the thread he started (the 9 page one).  BTW, did you check out that Squidoo forum where a member posted the explanation.... consider the source.... they have articles promoting chips and clearly don't understand knock!  It's very basic compared to where we are on this forum.

Biggest problem is it does not address any of the issues in our engines... only the theory behind the catch can idea.  No argument on the catch can... we just need objective testing, not debate, or current evidence on the Ford 3.5 V6 TT EB GDI.
 
BigMac .... Did you read the entirety of the article or just briefly skim through it ?

This is a short excerpt from it clearly stating DI problems as this one is just 1 addressed ....

The caking on intake valves is only a problem with direct injection engines. For all other engines that use port injection, the gas is introduced before the combustion chamber which means it flows over the intake valves and enter the combustion chamber premixed with the air. This action of the fuel flowing over the intake valves actually cleans the valves from any oil that may already be on there. The oil never has the chance to cake on the valves in port injection engines.

Having oil caked onto your intake valves can cause the following symptoms:

- Knocking
- Pre-ignition
- Loss in power
- Loss in fuel economy

You can see what carbon build-up on valves looks like above. Yes, it's that disgusting.
 
I did read it.... I read a lot of others like we all do ( every body can Google it and get 100K of them).  We're trying to find something directly related to the engines we have... which are different that the GDIs in German and japanese cars..... Not a dis to anyone or any product, not a dispute....  Theory is accepted. However, as you note, severity or potential related problems questions are not well answered, if at all, for our engines... most of the posts and articles are about GM, and imports which seem to have extreme problems with this.  I hate that the 2011 article is so old, I hate that it's only one engine... your spot on there. 
....But it is the only evidence directly related to my engine that I have found and don't plan to maintain my car based on import problems/recs. I hope those findings is how it works... I just don't have the evidence and don't believe anyone does for our engines...

You are absolutely correct that it's marketing (including those articles and forums with them)... and you can bet Ford knew what they would find... nothing significant...It's all marketing.... vendor postings here, other blogs, etc.... it's how things get paid for....

I have previously, along with others here, tried to find someone with enough miles to do a teardown and cleaning with pre and post dynos to add to much needed specific platform based info.  IMHO, we need new info, platform specific not more and more articles about other kinds of cars.  Not expressing any opinion on the catch can... no article yet is convincing for my car...

 
Computerization of engine controls means we are dealing with behind-the-scenes behavioral modification of our vehicles.  This goes hand-in-hand with the use of better materials and technology.  So the result is that performance degradation is kept in check as much as possible, so the service intervals are extended.  If you do not care about your car running tiptop, then you can likely live with the compromises made by the automaker.  Then you would also make extended warranties a normal part of your strategy.

Nobody wants to own an older-style Jag that was worse in terms of maintenance than our FixOrRepairDaily-mobiles, unless they are a collector/enthusiast.  Production cars are generally NOT built for enthusiasts, and this is where the aftermarket steps in.  We get products that keep the vehicles we love finely tuned and in better shape than at least 90% of similar vehicles out there.

All we ask is for proof of concept, plain and simple, nothing more, nothing less. [end /soapbox]
 
All DI's have this to certain extents, but here is what we need someone to do. Anyone handy enough to remove your intake manifold (not hard, just take your time and it takes minimal tools). Remove your intake manifold, and then you have a clear shot into the intake port to see the valves directly on your engine. Please take pictures to post and note how many miles you have on it.  The EB works as all DI engines do but there are different valve timing and injector timing events that the different manufacturers are experimenting with. So far we see some with less rapid build up so we know there is some headway being made, but none are immune. Also, in some of the articles out there (look for real SAE white papers,e tc. but most are taken from the actual ones as what is posted in the above threads is dead on accurate) you will see some have voided warranties by installing breathered cans that open the system, and that you never want. It must be a system that retains emissions compliant function.

Now, PaiterPat just left. What we found is the drill location for the front intake tube is before the fresh side barb, so at cruise it has been over powering the flow not allowing the can to work properly. So, everyone please note, no need to drill the front inlet pipe. Simply use the 5/8" barb to T into the back side one and then use a 90* 1/4 NPT x 3/8" barb for your clean side hose connection and drill it just after (down from) the air filter/air box. and connect the cleanside separator their. We tested and it worked properly, and it makes install easier. The trucks we can reach to drill downstream so that has never been an issue. Whichever fitting is closest to the turbo will over power the one up stream even if only by a few inches.  So, he is checking back in 500-800 miles to see the accumulation at that time.  Any questions, or anyone needing a fitting let us know and we will get it right out.

You want the fitting installed for the cleanside separator as close to the air filter as possible.
 
Tuner Boost said:
All DI's have this to certain extents, but here is what we need someone to do. Anyone handy enough to remove your intake manifold (not hard, just take your time and it takes minimal tools). Remove your intake manifold, and then you have a clear shot into the intake port to see the valves directly on your engine. Please take pictures to post and note how many miles you have on it.  The EB works as all DI engines do but there are different valve timing and injector timing events that the different manufacturers are experimenting with. So far we see some with less rapid build up so we know there is some headway being made, but none are immune. Also, in some of the articles out there (look for real SAE white papers,e tc. but most are taken from the actual ones as what is posted in the above threads is dead on accurate) you will see some have voided warranties by installing breathered cans that open the system, and that you never want. It must be a system that retains emissions compliant function.

Now, PaiterPat just left. What we found is the drill location for the front intake tube is before the fresh side barb, so at cruise it has been over powering the flow not allowing the can to work properly. So, everyone please note, no need to drill the front inlet pipe. Simply use the 5/8" barb to T into the back side one and then use a 90* 1/4 NPT x 3/8" barb for your clean side hose connection and drill it just after (down from) the air filter/air box. and connect the cleanside separator their. We tested and it worked properly, and it makes install easier. The trucks we can reach to drill downstream so that has never been an issue. Whichever fitting is closest to the turbo will over power the one up stream even if only by a few inches.  So, he is checking back in 500-800 miles to see the accumulation at that time.  Any questions, or anyone needing a fitting let us know and we will get it right out.

You want the fitting installed for the cleanside separator as close to the air filter as possible.
Click to expand...

Does this mean you are still fine tuning the placement of some fittings (parts) for best performance in real world application?  One more question, are you finding that there is any difference in how your system works on the truck engine vs the SHO engine?
 
SHOdded said:
Computerization of engine controls means we are dealing with behind-the-scenes behavioral modification of our vehicles.  This goes hand-in-hand with the use of better materials and technology.  So the result is that performance degradation is kept in check as much as possible, so the service intervals are extended.  If you do not care about your car running tiptop, then you can likely live with the compromises made by the automaker.  Then you would also make extended warranties a normal part of your strategy.

Nobody wants to own an older-style Jag that was worse in terms of maintenance than our FixOrRepairDaily-mobiles, unless they are a collector/enthusiast.  Production cars are generally NOT built for enthusiasts, and this is where the aftermarket steps in.  We get products that keep the vehicles we love finely tuned and in better shape than at least 90% of similar vehicles out there.

All we ask is for proof of concept, plain and simple, nothing more, nothing less. [end /soapbox]

Very well worded.  Since we have a eddy current loaded AWD dyno here we want to find a higher mileage car to do just this with as well. Before dyno and after, hopefully with an audience of independents to help document all. We will dyno the car first, 3 pulls for an average. Then tear down and manually clean valves while all can witness and photograph, then install can and back on dyno to document. This will also require removal and cleaning of the CAC to remove residual build up as we saw in PainterPats some still pulled from his CAC. So we want a few handy to help, and done on a weekend so it fits into more peoples schedules.  So, lets make it a goal to get one ASAP and find as many as can make it the same day (app 1/2 day to do all) and we will donate all except the can. That they need to buy from Mile here.  Sound good? 
Click to expand...
 
We finished the fittings and routing today, so that is the final configuration.  There is no real difference in the truck engine other than room to drill the inlet on the front further down. That and the CAC seems not as effective as the trucks so less water is accumulating with the cars.
 
Tuner Boost please repost a shortened version of the  " fix " you did in the " how to area " on painterpats Flex , this should apply to the SHO and  XSport as well .
 
Here you go everyone having sleepless nights over this issue.... BG products...the very company we have talked about,and there wonderful additives and machines have there very own taurus sho. They have been keeping tract of the valves and injectors over 60,000 miles. With excellnt boroscope photos and there take.

http://www.bgprod.com/bgfueltest/
 
panther427 said:
Here you go everyone having sleepless nights over this issue.... BG products...the very company we have talked about,and there wonderful additives and machines have there very own taurus sho. They have been keeping tract of the valves and injectors over 60,000 miles. With excellnt boroscope photos and there take.

http://www.bgprod.com/bgfueltest/
Click to expand...

Best evidence I've seen! Thanks Panther.... Food for thought here...not only on the catch can positive effects, but also maybe a change in thinking about synthetic oil.
 
Excellent find panther427 on GDI problems. directly related to the 3.5 EB .  BG is a known Expert in this area .... proof is in the pudding  The results of the long term 60,000 mile  test on there company owned 2010 SHO is conclusive  evidence .


http://www.bgprod.com/bgfueltest/

Now that we have a fix for the RX system I'm confident that we will have evidence soon as to its effectiveness.
 
Its evidence of buildup, but not the cause.

Small amounts of seal leakage is inherent in turbos, and it's worse at low boost operation where our engines spend most of their lives.

I'd hate to spend 500 bucks on catch cans and still wind up with buildup at the end of the day.

For my money, I will just do the BG service every 20-30k which will cover me for both scenarios for about the same amount of cash over the anticipated time of ownership.

 
Ok people you all are starting to be like politicians with this thing.. I want proof.  no no no no not that.. I want proof on a recent test.... nnooo no no no.. On a ford....NO on  A SHO, a F-150 doesnt count.

Now yes i agree with all that.. So now we have a SHO... so whats next.. well  what causes it.. Tracy has already explaned what causes it... Yes you do get some oil from the turbo seals.

AND I agree these systems are fing expensive when you look at most of the other brands out there.. 400 dollars for the CSS and CC.. THAT IS A TON OF MONEY>..

But if you havent used BG's products they arent cheap either..  30 dollars here and there for BG products over 2 years...... Trust me it adds up.. And i love there stuff i used the crap out of it when i was turning wrenches. The injector cleaning system, trans flush and evything else i used of there worked great.


But it comes down to what you want from your car and how long you plan to keep it...  I just hope this recent fix on painters car solves the problem.
 
Shorter drain intervals and E-85 to answer your edited response.

With 20k on the clock, I just ran 13.47@104.34

I'm just not that concerned about it.
 
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