Hesitation and high KR Cold weather issues?

ajpturbo, I get what you are saying. However to prove this I will need to do the testing again. Based on all the reading it is the only logical solution. If I am correct then the non Ethanol fuel will alleviate some of this. With the increased other lighter fuels + the E10 + the fact I had the same issue last spring + the logs. I have pretty much eliminated everything else. (oh and by the way you were right to begin with lol).

I am not sure that I want to put the car through that again. I will be doing some tests with no Ethanol.
 
Sho boat you should learn to view your AFR in lambda then you don't have to worry about stoic points for different fuels. Much simpler. Most tuners look at lambda.


And I thought you said it didn't act like this last spring? Well My vote is still all tune...

But you are right. AFR reading will be skewed when you are mixing fuels. O2 sensors read lambda NOT AFR. There is a scalar in your tune that tells the ECU what the AFR is for the fuel you are using. For stock it is 14.069. That I guess is what FORD is estimating the stoic point is for most pump gas

So when you log lambda and see 1 your afr is 14.069. When you are mixing fuels the stoic point will change and the ECU converts the lambda reading based on 14.069 so if your stoic point is different because of fuel then the AFR will be converted wrong...Not sure if that makes sense
 
ajpturbo said:
Sho boat you should learn to view your AFR in lambda then you don't have to worry about stoic points for different fuels. Much simpler. Most tuners look at lambda.


And I thought you said it didn't act like this last spring? Well My vote is still all tune...

But you are right. AFR reading will be skewed when you are mixing fuels. O2 sensors read lambda NOT AFR. There is a scalar in your tune that tells the ECU what the AFR is for the fuel you are using. For stock it is 14.069. That I guess is what FORD is estimating the stoic point is for most pump gas

So when you log lambda and see 1 your afr is 14.069. When you are mixing fuels the stoic point will change and the ECU converts the lambda reading based on 14.069 so if your stoic point is different because of fuel then the AFR will be converted wrong...Not sure if that makes sense
Click to expand...

It didn't act like this with my first tune from LMS. Only when I went to V7.... V8. I had some other issues with the car at that time that we believed that that was the issue. That was corrected and I still had the random misfire until later in the spring when it all of a sudden vanished. I realize what you are saying and I get that (I am agreeing with you).  I can log lambda, however I believe that the result will still be the same. The car cannot change the conversion of 14.069 on its own. It has no way of knowing what the stoic point of the current fuel is? Can it?
 
I'm just saying if you log lambda and you know what fuel type you put in and what your mix is then you will know about what your stoic point is then when you see lambda then you will know the real AFR.

The car is making the calculation from lambda based on 14.069 unless LMS changed that, which I doubt.

With out looking it up, E15 may have a stoic point of 13.8 and E10 may be 14.3 so if you are at .80 lambda at WOT  then your afr would be .80 x 13.8 OR .80 x 14.3 depending on your fuel but the displayed AFR when you log would be .80 x 14.069 so you see how there could be a discrepancy in actual AFR. THat's why tuners prefer to view lambda because no matter the fuel if you get the lambda readings you want then you are good and no need to convert.
 
So a little more experimentation and more data logging joy ;). However early results are promising, with the 91 V8 tune and 91 sans Ethanol Shell Vpower no hesitation/misfire. Felt nice and smooth. I did still have 10L of Esso 93 in it, I couldn't wait for tomorrow to run the tank right down. I didn't get to take it for a good thrashing but I did get through the first 3 gears.  I can tell you there was a fair bit more KR though lol. (Duh 91 octane). Rail pressure didn't drop below 1800 psi below is the chart. Tomorrow ambient won't go above 10C, perfect conditions for some more testing. So either this station has it's summer gas already. Or the above conclusions could be correct. I also logged stock tune and FRP was higher than the commanded value for most the WOT pull. (just interesting).

ajp I did log this time with lambda instead of AFR and it was 1 during the whole wot pull.       
 
Wow that's lean.....Is that with the stock tune? I have noticed the stock tune does run lean until deep into a pull, I guess that's by design and to help with economy.
 
ShoBoat said:
So a little more experimentation and more data logging joy ;). However early results are promising, with the 91 V8 tune and 91 sans Ethanol Shell Vpower no hesitation/misfire. Felt nice and smooth. I did still have 10L of Esso 93 in it, I couldn't wait for tomorrow to run the tank right down. I didn't get to take it for a good thrashing but I did get through the first 3 gears.  I can tell you there was a fair bit more KR though lol. (Duh 91 octane). Rail pressure didn't drop below 1800 psi below is the chart. Tomorrow ambient won't go above 10C, perfect conditions for some more testing. So either this station has it's summer gas already. Or the above conclusions could be correct. I also logged stock tune and FRP was higher than the commanded value for most the WOT pull. (just interesting).

ajp I did log this time with lambda instead of AFR and it was 1 during the whole wot pull.     
Click to expand...
There are 2 sensors , one is pump, one is rail.

Max pressure at the pump is 2150 ish, but I see over 2700 max actual on the rail.

Do you have Torque?

I built a gauge with commanded pump pressure, actual rail pressure, and Lambda all in one, it makes it easy to monitor when you are driving.
 
ajpturbo said:
Wow that's lean.....Is that with the stock tune? I have noticed the stock tune does run lean until deep into a pull, I guess that's by design and to help with economy.
Click to expand...

No it was the 91 Tune. Here is the screenshot of the log.

 
FoMoCoSHO said:
ShoBoat said:
So a little more experimentation and more data logging joy ;). However early results are promising, with the 91 V8 tune and 91 sans Ethanol Shell Vpower no hesitation/misfire. Felt nice and smooth. I did still have 10L of Esso 93 in it, I couldn't wait for tomorrow to run the tank right down. I didn't get to take it for a good thrashing but I did get through the first 3 gears.  I can tell you there was a fair bit more KR though lol. (Duh 91 octane). Rail pressure didn't drop below 1800 psi below is the chart. Tomorrow ambient won't go above 10C, perfect conditions for some more testing. So either this station has it's summer gas already. Or the above conclusions could be correct. I also logged stock tune and FRP was higher than the commanded value for most the WOT pull. (just interesting).

ajp I did log this time with lambda instead of AFR and it was 1 during the whole wot pull.     
Click to expand...

There are 2 sensors , one is pump, one is rail.

Max pressure at the pump is 2150 ish, but I see over 2700 max actual on the rail.

Do you have Torque?

I built a gauge with commanded pump pressure, actual rail pressure, and Lambda all in one, it makes it easy to monitor when you are driving.
Click to expand...

I do have Torque. It how I usually keep an eye on things. I usually data log with Forscan though. Do you have the PID for the 2 Pump and rail?
 
So driving around today I can confirm that the car runs much better on the 91 no Ethanol. I don't pretend to fully understand what is going on but the Car + Tune + 94 winter gas with Ethanol does not run right when the Temp is on the cooler side. Today it's 8C.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
2f9997eeaa032be6c9ae9b4ed132bcde.jpg


No misfires at all, KR is kinda brutal though. LOR is down to -0.94. Funny the car still feels stronger even though is pulling timing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
A typical summer-grade gasoline is composed of fluid catalytic cracker gasoline, 40%; straight-run gasoline (directly from crude oil distillation), 25%; alkylate, 15%; reformate, 18%; and butane, 2%. Winter-grade gasoline usually contains more butane, which has an octane rating slightly below premium gasoline (91-93 octane). While butane is an economic component of gasoline, the high volatility of butane limits the amount of butane that can be used in summer-grade gasoline.

Just a FYI for those of you with issues like mine and higher KR than normal in winter.


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