Hey SBS! I am thinking of meth for intake cooling.. need your suggestions

[TopherSho]

Ok,  my plan is simple.  I do not want a meth dependent tune,  I would like to keep my tune as is where it is dialed in, but would like on race day to drop my IAT2 temps significantly.

My thought based on Snows website, Alky reading is a simple WoT switch with a STATIC spray, and not a scaling amount of spray.

My hope is to keep the IAT under 110 IDEALLY for a full run on the track.   

Your thoughts good sir ??

 

[ajpturbo]

I would say start with a small amount..The problem is most people overdo it and spray too much. Use your stft's as a gauge. A lot of people spray too much and the stft's pull the max allowed amount of fuel and often that still isn't enough and you end up going pig rich. That can lead to misfires and fouled plugs.

I would try a small nozzle and see how it looks...I'll look at the logs for you also.

And I didn't mean to ignore your email I still have it!

 

[TopherSho]

And I didn't mean to ignore your email I still have it!

Sound advice and was my plan good sir!  I will go with the smallest jet in the kit and then log log log...  My plan is simply to get to 110f.  anything more than that is just upsetting the STOIC more than needed for my build.

I know your busy,  so I am not worried about the email yet! 

 

[TopherSho]

sooo is it not BAD to possibly spray wet fluid on the MAP/IAT2 sensor in the Intake ??

 

[lamrith]

I will go with the smallest jet in the kit and then log log log... 

WHOA whoa whoa, wait a second, did you join the methheads and not tell us? :bravo:

 

[TopherSho]

I will go with the smallest jet in the kit and then log log log... 

WHOA whoa whoa, wait a second, did you join the methheads and not tell us? :bravo:

Not yet.. I am a super researcher 1st then implementer.  So 1st is, get pro-tips.  how much spray, what nozzel,  what juice. 

my next is where to mount.. which is me thinking back that wetting the IAT2/MAP is BAD.. thus where the crap are people mounting their nozzels?  how are the drilling them out?

After that how are people 'fixing' their nozzels in place? sealing it? and keeping things from coming unscrewed and getting sucked into the engine..

after that it will be setting up a switch to turn on the spray in low volume right before lining up at idle speeds to lower the IAT before the final lineup at the blocks.

 

[lamrith]

I will go with the smallest jet in the kit and then log log log... 

WHOA whoa whoa, wait a second, did you join the methheads and not tell us? :bravo:

Not yet.. I am a super researcher 1st then implementer.  So 1st is, get pro-tips.  how much spray, what nozzel,  what juice. 

my next is where to mount.. which is me thinking back that wetting the IAT2/MAP is BAD.. thus where the crap are people mounting their nozzels?  how are the drilling them out?

After that how are people 'fixing' their nozzels in place? sealing it? and keeping things from coming unscrewed and getting sucked into the engine..

after that it will be setting up a switch to turn on the spray in low volume right before lining up at idle speeds to lower the IAT before the final lineup at the blocks.

I am working on mounting and nozzle installation myself.  I am trying to find a creative (and larger) solution than the res that came with the Stage2 kit without having to pay $120more, or use the sock tank and risk someone using non meth...  Hoping to find a donor tank in a wrecking yard to play with and install in a different location.

There are adapters/grommets that Snow makes to mount nozzles in rubber/silicone hoses.  I might use one of those to mount mine, still focusing on tank 1st.

Keep in mind if you are at idle, your throttle blade is pretty much closed, that is one reason we get so hot at idle and when you press accel even sitting still you see a temp drop.  It is letting air actually flow past the throttle blade, at idle there is just no airflow.  Flow is life.
I have a feeling spraying infront of it will not net you much cooling at idle.  I would also be curious about ramifications of all that meth/water (even with baby nozzle) behind the TB then rushing at the cylinders when you hit throttle?  Airflow is our biggest enemy, but for the car to idle there has to be a lack or airflow....  Nice catch 22.

In a perfect/dream world, having an intake with an independent water jacket that is hooked to something like a killer chiller would be awesome and solve the issue.

 

[TopherSho]

I am working on mounting and nozzle installation myself.  I am trying to find a creative (and larger) solution than the res that came with the Stage2 kit without having to pay $120more, or use the sock tank and risk someone using non meth...  Hoping to find a donor tank in a wrecking yard to play with and install in a different location.

There are adapters/grommets that Snow makes to mount nozzles in rubber/silicone hoses.  I might use one of those to mount mine, still focusing on tank 1st.

Those grommets horrify me.  something that can unscrew over time and detach.. i cannot bring myself to trust them.

Keep in mind if you are at idle, your throttle blade is pretty much closed, that is one reason we get so hot at idle and when you press accel even sitting still you see a temp drop.  It is letting air actually flow past the throttle blade, at idle there is just no airflow.  Flow is life.

I have a feeling spraying infront of it will not net you much cooling at idle.  I would also be curious about ramifications of all that meth/water (even with baby nozzle) behind the TB then rushing at the cylinders when you hit throttle?  Airflow is our biggest enemy, but for the car to idle there has to be a lack or airflow....  Nice catch 22.

In a perfect/dream world, having an intake with an independent water jacket that is hooked to something like a killer chiller would be awesome and solve the issue.

I'm thinking of not full flow,  I am wondering of the pump can be actuated with lower voltage,  thus lower flow.  instead of full flow run 1/5th or slightly less.  I am not looking to go ambient,  but idling at PIR with my IAT2 at 170f is awful.  And as I experimented and found shutting down the car in the pre-stage lanes makes it worse.  so if i can spray 1/5th rate at idle,  and have it all evaporate successfully it should drop the idle temps in the lanes or at least not allow it to peak as high as i have seen.

 

[lamrith]

I am working on mounting and nozzle installation myself.  I am trying to find a creative (and larger) solution than the res that came with the Stage2 kit without having to pay $120more, or use the sock tank and risk someone using non meth...  Hoping to find a donor tank in a wrecking yard to play with and install in a different location.

There are adapters/grommets that Snow makes to mount nozzles in rubber/silicone hoses.  I might use one of those to mount mine, still focusing on tank 1st.

Those grommets horrify me.  something that can unscrew over time and detach.. i cannot bring myself to trust them.

Have to make sure set them correctly for sure.  The nut side of it being on the outside so nothing can come loose and go down the intake.  If it comes loose worst case you have a boost/vacuum leak and the nut is hanging there on your meth line..  Plus some liberal use of sealant/thread lock. 

That is down the path a ways for me, I am still debating on if I look for a PI tube, buy hotpipes, or use my stock one.  Part of that decision is on if I want to eventually do the AJP WG mod...  Blasted snowball is hauling down the hill straight to the high CC debt cliff!

Keep in mind if you are at idle, your throttle blade is pretty much closed, that is one reason we get so hot at idle and when you press accel even sitting still you see a temp drop.  It is letting air actually flow past the throttle blade, at idle there is just no airflow.  Flow is life.

I have a feeling spraying infront of it will not net you much cooling at idle.  I would also be curious about ramifications of all that meth/water (even with baby nozzle) behind the TB then rushing at the cylinders when you hit throttle?  Airflow is our biggest enemy, but for the car to idle there has to be a lack or airflow....  Nice catch 22.

In a perfect/dream world, having an intake with an independent water jacket that is hooked to something like a killer chiller would be awesome and solve the issue.

I'm thinking of not full flow,  I am wondering of the pump can be actuated with lower voltage,  thus lower flow.  instead of full flow run 1/5th or slightly less.  I am not looking to go ambient,  but idling at PIR with my IAT2 at 170f is awful.  And as I experimented and found shutting down the car in the pre-stage lanes makes it worse.  so if i can spray 1/5th rate at idle,  and have it all evaporate successfully it should drop the idle temps in the lanes or at least not allow it to peak as high as i have seen.

Yup, don't disagree, just giving you additional things to consider and plan for.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Here is my .02 cents.. and by all means there are MANY other people more versed in the meth trade than myself... but here is my humble opinion...

If you are just looking to lower your IAT's and not use the kit for more tuning ability.. then a cheap stage 1/2 AEM or Snow kit would be ideal...HOWEVER... this was my original intent.. see how far off track I got? The nice thing about the Snow Stage 2 kit is the controller and gauge.. it tells you how much meth is being sprayed. It is also SUPER easy to tune with. However, their system is rated for 50/50 meth not 100% meth. But for your purposes that should be fine..

You ABSOLUTELY spray right before the throttle body... this will allow the meth to hit the IAT2 sensor that is part of the MAP sensor on your intake manifold. It is fine to let it spray the sensor.. otherwise... you will not lower your IAT's as this is where its reading them from...

ZSHO just got his port injection for meth setup as LMS.. and is in the process of getting a 7th nozzle put in at the throttle body to assist with lowering IATs.. while his system is quite advanced, because he is injecting AFTER the IAT sensor.. his IAT's are not lowering since no meth/water is passing the sensor... I will let him elaborate more if he feels like it.

In short... Stage 2 Snow or AEM for better control and data gathering... and yes, spray before the IAT2 sensor so the IAT2 sensor gets "wet" allowing it to read cooler..

 

[TopherSho]

Thank you for the reply!  Now taking your text as I read it it seems you imply the major effect is cooling the sensor more than cooling the air charge. Did I read that wrong? 

My understanding has been water in fog from is injected into the air stream up from the cylinders and it vaporizes in transit lowering the temp.. while the meth helps with keeping octane up/level compensating the h20. 

If I go 25w/75m I get less cooling and more fuel and octane.

OK so I do not need to worry about the sensor.. check !

Next, the vac/boost source.  Are people plumbing thier own vac/boost source? Or where are you plugging it in?  The installation diagram is quite lacking..

 

[lamrith]

Thank you for the reply!  No taking your text as I read it it seems you imply the major effect is cooling the sensor more than cooling the air charge. Did I read that wrong? 

Yes and no.  The goal and result is to actually cool the air.  BUT if the sensor does not see the cooling then it cannot adapt and you cannot take full advantage of the cooling.  Z's case the nozzles are post sensor, so his car thinks it is still hot, and will be changing timing due to that.  Now the tuner can (in theory, I will let them verify or not) crank up his timing knowing he has meth and a colder charge, but the car will still them pull timing out afterwards.  Spray before the sensor and you get cooler charge AND the car know it is cooler..

My understanding has been water in fog from is injected into the air stream up from the cylinders and it vaporizes in transit lowering the temp.. while the meth helps with keeping octane up/level compensating the h20. 

If I go 25w/75m I get less cooling and more fuel and octane.

OK so I do not need to worry about the sensor.. check !

Next, the vac/boost source.  Are people plumbing thier own vac/boost source? Or where are you plugging it in?  The installation diagram is quite lacking..

The Snow Stage 2 kit comes in a few variants.  I chose the MAP one (snow Kit #212) which you just splice a wire into the MAP sensor wire and it takes reference from that.  No plumbing required.

 

[TopherSho]

Hmm that is interesting.  But also a good amount more $$.  Hmmm.

140$ more or pipe to a boost source..  need to look at aem kits.

Thank you!

 

[TopherSho]

Hmm that is interesting.  But also a good amount more $$.  Hmmm.

140$ more or pipe to a boost source..  need to look at aem kits.

Thank you!

And need to remote mount  the tank

 

[lamrith]

Hmm that is interesting.  But also a good amount more $$.  Hmmm.

140$ more or pipe to a boost source..  need to look at aem kits.

Thank you!

No or minor price difference.  msrp on the stage2 with MAF/MAP is $499 as are the other two Stage 2 setups.
MAF/MAP: https://www.snowperformance.net/Stage-2-MAF-MAP-Water-Methanol-injection-system-p/212.htm
Universal kit:  https://www.snowperformance.net/Stage-2-Boost-Cooler-Water-Methanol-Injection-Kit-p/20010.htm

The NEW Stage 2 with gauge is more $$.
https://www.snowperformance.net/Stage-2-Boost-Cooler-Water-Methanol-Injection-Kit-p/210.htm

 

[TopherSho]

Stage 1 is 350,  that was my initial plan for a static spray volume..  still  pondering.

 

[TopherSho]

Where is everyone mounting their tanks and pumps?  I crawled under mine last night and i can see space to install it if it tear half my front end off.. but he pump and cabling need space as well and i am not sure where i'd plant it all.

 

[lamrith]

Where is everyone mounting their tanks and pumps?  I crawled under mine last night and i can see space to install it if it tear half my front end off.. but the pump and cabling need space as well and i am not sure where i'd plant it all.

Yeah it seems daunting, but from youtube and threads here removing the bumper cover is not that difficult from what I can tell...

Lot of guys seem to use the windshield washer tank as their meth tank.  Some share duty with WW, some retask the meth kit tank as the WW tank.  Lot depends on %meth and personal preference.  Over 50% I think can be harmful to paint/wipers??

I would think if planning use the WW tank as meth and not running 100% then maybe using a pair of hoses to link the two tanks together would be a way to increase overall volume on a budget.  Make the Sow tank a piggyback tank as it were.  Mount the Snow tank so that the bottom of it is above bottom of the stock tank.  Run a line from bottom of SNOW tank to near bottom of the stock tank using a grommet in stock tank.  Then run a line from top half of snow tank to top of the stock tank.  Maybe even have the connection on the stock tank higher than the snow tank to help purge air.  This way when you fill the main tank, the fluid will also fill over into the snow tank, increasing total capacity...

Crappy picture attached of what I tried to esplain...

 

[TopherSho]

Where is everyone mounting their tanks and pumps?  I crawled under mine last night and i can see space to install it if it tear half my front end off.. but the pump and cabling need space as well and i am not sure where i'd plant it all.

Yeah it seems daunting, but from youtube and threads here removing the bumper cover is not that difficult from what I can tell...

Lot of guys seem to use the windshield washer tank as their meth tank.  Some share duty with WW, some retask the meth kit tank as the WW tank.  Lot depends on %meth and personal preference.  Over 50% I think can be harmful to paint/wipers??

I would think if planning use the WW tank as meth and not running 100% then maybe using a pair of hoses to link the two tanks together would be a way to increase overall volume on a budget.  Make the Sow tank a piggyback tank as it were.  Mount the Snow tank so that the bottom of it is above bottom of the stock tank.  Run a line from bottom of SNOW tank to near bottom of the stock tank using a grommet in stock tank.  Then run a line from top half of snow tank to top of the stock tank.  Maybe even have the connection on the stock tank higher than the snow tank to help purge air.  This way when you fill the main tank, the fluid will also fill over into the snow tank, increasing total capacity...

Crappy picture attached of what I tried to esplain...

How do you plan on filling it in the fender? Are you going to neck it?

 

[lamrith]

Where is everyone mounting their tanks and pumps?  I crawled under mine last night and i can see space to install it if it tear half my front end off.. but the pump and cabling need space as well and i am not sure where i'd plant it all.

Yeah it seems daunting, but from youtube and threads here removing the bumper cover is not that difficult from what I can tell...

Lot of guys seem to use the windshield washer tank as their meth tank.  Some share duty with WW, some retask the meth kit tank as the WW tank.  Lot depends on %meth and personal preference.  Over 50% I think can be harmful to paint/wipers??

I would think if planning use the WW tank as meth and not running 100% then maybe using a pair of hoses to link the two tanks together would be a way to increase overall volume on a budget.  Make the Sow tank a piggyback tank as it were.  Mount the Snow tank so that the bottom of it is above bottom of the stock tank.  Run a line from bottom of SNOW tank to near bottom of the stock tank using a grommet in stock tank.  Then run a line from top half of snow tank to top of the stock tank.  Maybe even have the connection on the stock tank higher than the snow tank to help purge air.  This way when you fill the main tank, the fluid will also fill over into the snow tank, increasing total capacity...

Crappy picture attached of what I tried to esplain...

How do you plan on filling it in the fender? Are you going to neck it?

Linking like I put in picture, I would not need to fill it in fender.

In terms of running separate systems I am still working out how I want to do it.  I am scouring the net looking at other tank options that might be adaptable.  Remote fill necks, OEM tanks that might fit, etc, etc...  Will advise once I figure something out.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/192129527431?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT