High boost at part throttle-inducing knock

[mwemaxxowner]

Hello everyone. I joined because I stumbled across this forum while googling an issue I've been having. My problem is strikingly similar to what's going on in this thread.
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=4958.0

I have a '16 2.7 ecoboost with 25,000 miles on it. It's been great, but a while back I started to notice a noise that I thought was pinging. It had just turned off cold, so I wrote it off as the winter gas everyone talks about.

The issue is most prevalent when I'm in 5th or 6th gear. At 60 or above I can ease into the throttle, and it just builds boost. It won't downshift, unless I really stab the throttle. This would be fine, except it can cause knock to go through the roof. And sometimes has resulted in audible knock.


A while back it was getting really bad, and I'm running the stock tune. I pulled my intercooler, which had a lot of oil in it, cleaned it, and it was immediately much better. But not fixed. I'm guessing the oil just exacerbated what I believe is knock due to lspi.

I can generally manually shift to mitigate or avoid this condition altogether. But sometimes you just wanna drive without watching gauges and pressing buttons.

Wot performance and wot logs seem fine. It's just part throttle in 5th or 6th, particularly between 1500-2000 rpms. I remember one time in particular at 50% throttle and 1.8 load I was at 12 psi. That was the stock tune. Afr was near 1.0 at that point in the log.

I need it to downshift sooner, or produce less boost until rpms rise, or a little of both. I run only 93 octane from shell.

I have a new boost control solenoid on the way, as it's a cheap part to throw at this problem. I've checked/changed plugs. Checked map sensors (which always look good, etc.)

For what it's worth, I have, on only a few occasions, heard​ the knock on acceleration in lower gears. But that is extremely uncommon.

I know Ford says "occasional pinging is normal", but I don't think that's cool. Lol

There may be some details I'm leaving out, but I believe that's most of the information I have on it. Absolutely no codes. I'm curious if O2 sensors can have any issues but throw no codes, or a throttle body. I know throttle body issues are kinda common on these. Not sure if that could be related though. I've looked all vacuum lines over so many times, but I'm not ruling anything out.

Thanks for any pointers. I really hope to figure this out. I love this truck. Power is good, mileage is great, and it tows well. If it'll hold up.

 

[SHOdded]

Welcome to the forum, please do introduce yourself in the New Member area.
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,14.0.html

Can you post some logs (stock, tuned) for us to look at?  Our membership will certainly spot something amiss if it is.

Have you checked with the dealer to see if there is a calibration update?  It may be a hard parts failure, maybe not.  You mention that cleaning the intercooler and methanol injection both made a difference in the amount of knock seen.  Did the throttle body show signs of oil/crud pooling?  Might possibly indicate the need for a catchcan.  There have been a couple of TSBs issued already for the '16 2.7, but I will have to find out what they actually say.

 

[TopherSho]

You need to talk to AJPTurbo, he is tuning his own 2.7 rig himself and has tuned my rig to great success, I'd also talk to the Senior members SHOdded, StealBlueSho, FoMoCo and a few others I cant remember off the top of my head about this when they chime in on this thread.  (i would not message them directly, let them comment here to keep the conversation orderly)

As to the log (critical), you can post directly here on the forum using the attachments link just below the 'post' window.  it will be eaiser to post a log from a PC\MAC than in a phone.

Do you have livelink installed? you can pull the log and save it using the CONFIG file that Torrie uses for datalogging the tune.  then use the attachment feature to post it here.  If the log is more than 20 megabytes in size you will need to compress it.

Gluck.. subscribed to learn more.

 

[TopherSho]

I do use live link. I'm sure the logs are larger than that. I'll have to figure out how to compress it.

As far as power goes, everything is great. I love the tunes. Shifts great. Except at 60 and above when I try to accelerate a little or climb a hill :'(. Which happens often! If I wasn't watching gauges, I'd never know anything is wrong. Except when it pings. Which sometimes only rarely happens.

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Boom!  (for windows, right click and select 'send to' then select 'compressed file'

 

[TopherSho]

I think I'm gonna like it here . Thanks a million.

I've just gone back through my emails I sent off to tuners and a few friends and gathered a list of datalog files, a few tuned and a few untuned, that captured this issue pretty well. I'll do my best to get them loaded tonight. I even found one that was producing 7.99 KR on meth injection with torrie's meth tune. At the time this was a new issue and I think we assumed it was false knock. That may be interesting to look at also.

I think delving into these logs can be a pretty time consuming activity. I certainly don't expect anyone to donate their precious time to review these. But if anyone is able to narrow down the possible issues that could be causing this I'd be eternally grateful. At the moment I almost think I'll need to baby it until it's paid off, then save up the 5 grand for a long block.

Maybe I'll get lucky and the boost control solenoid will fix it. Lol. I may do a leakdown test when. I change the plugs. I've never done one, but I know the procedure. First time for everything, right?

I need to reiterate though. It does it on all my tunes. Unleashed and Brew City, and another tuner who hasn't gone public yet who wishes I don't mention him until he's ready to sell. And I'll note that the data looks best on that tune but it's still not solved. Tow tunes and performance tunes, and stock.


I had 5* tunes way back when, and had no issues, but I didn't know much about reading data then, and the truck was very new then.

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The moderators are very reliable and will help you a ton as long as you are straight with them.  It is a good community here!

 

[lamrith]

With the issues you are having I would highly recommend putting together a config file so you can log knock by cylinder.  Either you do it or have your tuner do it.  My car was showing some KR beyond what my tuner expected initially, so we started logging each Cyl to be safe and so he could see what was going on better.

 

[ZSHO]

I think I'm gonna like it here . Thanks a million.

I've just gone back through my emails I sent off to tuners and a few friends and gathered a list of datalog files, a few tuned and a few untuned, that captured this issue pretty well. I'll do my best to get them loaded tonight. I even found one that was producing 7.99 KR on meth injection with torrie's meth tune. At the time this was a new issue and I think we assumed it was false knock. That may be interesting to look at also.

I think delving into these logs can be a pretty time consuming activity. I certainly don't expect anyone to donate their precious time to review these. But if anyone is able to narrow down the possible issues that could be causing this I'd be eternally grateful. At the moment I almost think I'll need to baby it until it's paid off, then save up the 5 grand for a long block.

Maybe I'll get lucky and the boost control solenoid will fix it. Lol. I may do a leakdown test when. I change the plugs. I've never done one, but I know the procedure. First time for everything, right?

I need to reiterate though. It does it on all my tunes. Unleashed and Brew City, and another tuner who hasn't gone public yet who wishes I don't mention him until he's ready to sell. And I'll note that the data looks best on that tune but it's still not solved. Tow tunes and performance tunes, and stock.


I had 5* tunes way back when, and had no issues, but I didn't know much about reading data then, and the truck was very new then.

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Welcome aboard the E.B.P.F mwemaxxowner and glad you like it here!
Due setup an intro by following the below link,thanks.  Z
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,14.0.html

 

[SHOdded]

Only 9 MB?  LOL

 

[TopherSho]

Someone with more experience will need to comment to correct me... but i do not see the issue. the MAX (column 3) value is not above 3 for any cylinder and seems mostly normal.  Although I would prefer to see the overall 'knock' log as well as the individual cylinder knock values.

in fact the -3 average values in column indicate the engine WANTS to add spark.  hmmm do you have other logs with greater knock values ?

 

[TopherSho]

Someone with more experience will need to comment to correct me... but i do not see the issue. the MAX (column 3) value is not above 3 for any cylinder and seems mostly normal.  Although I would prefer to see the overall 'knock' log as well as the individual cylinder knock values.

in fact the -3 average values in column indicate the engine WANTS to add spark.  hmmm do you have other logs with greater knock values ?

clarification .. a log with greater knock that is STOCK ECU programming without meth on pump 93/92 gas?   

 

[TopherSho]

You are correct. Except there is audible knock at the points I mention. The noise is like a golf ball bouncing off concrete. When bad enough accompanied by a puff of smoke out the tailpipe.

What color?

Blue/blue+black = oil
White = water vapor
charcoal color = super rich

Where do you live ... what gas do you buy?

 

[TopherSho]

Yep,  I saw the OAR dip.  Again someone else will need to respond to correct me,  but that tends to only happen ::

When the CaC has fluid in it. 
When the gas has way higher water content than expected.
when the Gas was not actually 93/92.

Of the three 1 & 3 jump at me.  But..

#1 should not be a issue as I swear they put the barrier baffle thing in the newer Condenser to keep it from sucking up gobs of fluids
#2 you have been to various gas-ups and have the same issue. 

call me crazy but i think you have a bad sensor.  we may 'see' it as good in our limited view of the cars logs.. but it may be a false value.

Someone else needs to chime in but my immediate thought is a proper diagnostic from the dealer using their flight data recorder thing-a-ma-bob that looks at more datapoints.

 

[TopherSho]

On that note, though, I may try a bottle or two of heet again, maybe I have some condensation that has stuck around a bit? I've never found any water in my intercooler when I pulled it, just oil. I will pull a current log on the stock tune. These are a bit old. What parameters would you all like to see?

Until they hear a ping or see a code the dealer isn't offering much help.

The knock sensor isn't much money, but it seems it's a pain to change. With an educated guess that that's it though I'd be willing to take it on.

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I would honestly not replace any gear, and not run any additional fluids besides normal oil and gas. 

I would also bite the bullet and find another FORD dealer to work with.  A off the cuff "it runs like that" response from the dealer is unacceptable to me or indicates they know something but don't care to address it.

 

[16MagSport]

Did you say that your afr was 1.0 at 50% throttle and 12 psi of boost?  That can't be right.  If it is holding stoich with that much load, then it is way too lean and will ping for sure.


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[FoMoCoSHO]

Have your tuners messed with your LSPI tables?

Are you logging spark source?

Direct injection tolerates lean conditions much better than port so if you are pulling 15 degrees of spark, I'd be very concerned.....In fact, I'd need to change my underwear!

I wonder if you've got a bad injector? The only way to figure that out (I think) would be to swap an injector and see if KR moves with it.

 

[TopherSho]

There are just a lot of possibilities. Too many rabbits to chase.

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Yup, that is why I think a proper diagnostic from a different dealer may be in order.  it could be a bad sensor, bad harness ect throwing off readings.  could be the injector but it would pop a code unless there is a fault elsewhere as well   ..

 

[ajpturbo]

I could send you a config file to log with...the dealer wont even look at the log...they arent even epuipped to look or understand.

You need a legitimate log for starters with proper pids...and even the. It can be difficult becuase you really have no idea what the s going on in the calibration

I would return to stock and see if you get dtc's

Its hard for me to believe you are actually even getting knock...the knock sensors will pull spark to prevent that...the knock readings you see in the log are not knock but rather the amount of additional crankshaft rotation before the spark plug fires in order to prevent knock from happening

You had a 2.7?...it runs individual cylinder knock sensor logic so remember its the opp of the sho guys...when logging individual knock ssensor...negative values are pulling spark or delaying spark but that amount of extra crank rotation

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

I wouldn't count on a injector always causing a CEL.

You're not logging fuel trims so we can't see if the ECM is trying to compensate for a malfunctioning injector.

That config file is a bit different than what I'm used to looking at.

I would take AJP up on that config file and get some fresh logs.

 

[ajpturbo]

Im simply saying you need real logs, which you have, and not logs from torque pro or an app...i thought you mentioned that is what you would show a dealer

I would look at individual knock sensor dmr

Global is fine but not as specific

 

[ajpturbo]

You will get knock retard like crazy on this engine if you switch your stock setting from individual knock retard...i would use the stock setting for  starters.

Next i would never ever look for a custom tune to help a knock retard problem....the very last thing you want to do is throw more boost at a knock retard problem

What website are you looking at to see if you have strategy updates availabel?

What is your strategy and software ecu part number....post those and ill see if i can find something

What is your spark when at wot and load level?