High boost at part throttle-inducing knock

[ajpturbo]

There are no calibrators or tuners at the dealer....it needs to be stock and have dtc's

Stock i think your tune will pull a max of 7.5 degrees of spark....if it remains pegged during a wot pull i could believe its knocking because it may want to pull more and cant.....if you see spikes of 7.5 and less than i would have a hard time believing its really knocking

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

Im simply saying you need real logs, which you have, and not logs from torque pro or an app...i thought you mentioned that is what you would show a dealer

I would look at individual knock sensor dmr

Global is fine but not as specific

Ahh. Gotcha. I was just meaning something I could show the dealer. I can't very well roll up in there with my x4.  Then they definitely won't look at it. Lol

"False" knock has been mentioned, and I'd be inclined to believe a lot of the knock I see was false, if it weren't for the knock I hear. I don't have a loud exhaust, or downpipes, etc.

Edit-I did have Torrie switch my old tow tune over to cylinder knock. That is a tune I can log and watch knock on each cylinder.

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mwe, you've got mail!

 

[TopherSho]

Im simply saying you need real logs, which you have, and not logs from torque pro or an app...i thought you mentioned that is what you would show a dealer

I would look at individual knock sensor dmr

Global is fine but not as specific

Ahh. Gotcha. I was just meaning something I could show the dealer. I can't very well roll up in there with my x4.  Then they definitely won't look at it. Lol

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That will be a problem for the dealer...  They likely are not going to take the word of any of us that the data you show them indicates a problem.  Ford and most dealer OEM shops have a set protocol of diagnostics that they follow.  you have sadly already encountered it. If THEY can't reproduce it they don't think it exists.  But it is also not 'entirely' thier fault.  If they took the word of every tom-****&harry that their favorite tuner said they have a issue they'd loose enormous amounts of time running ''what if'' diagnostics.  sadly you need to get them to admit they hear it,  and or get a hard CEL/DCT to pop that they can start following the sheets on (sheets being steps 1-100 on what to troubleshoot).  Without a certain amount of hard-set steps to follow you'd be in the shop longer and cost more cash.

we can show them the bad knock if and when you can record it with the handheld with a better datalog config  .. but it is testimony they cannot validate *or wont* based on their previous response of "that's just how it runs..".

I defer to greater judgement than mine .. but i would think they need the their in-car diagnostic tools to believe what we might say is going on.

is the truck within warranty \ return to dealer time ??  you could be a **** and force the issue by threatening to return it, but it will ruin your relationship with that dealer.

 

[ajpturbo]

You could run 87 octane stock and try to blow it up since you have warranty

Just know that the knock sensor activity is not knock...a common thing i see is people telling me they are knocking because they saw knock sensors readings....there should always be knock sensor readings

I know what your reply will be but i think some people will imagine knock noises because they see knock sensors readings and thier mind tells them it has to be knocking....but your reply is you say you really hear it so back to square 1....drive it stock and blow it up i guess and problem should be solved

The fact is these ecoboost engines are so sensitive with the robust ford knock logic its actually very rare that they really knock.....the knock sensors simply wont allow it....unless you are running insane amounts of boost that no amount of knock retard can remedy

I have to get my ass back to work!...post a few different logs and the items i asked you about if you can

 

[SHOdded]

Too bad there is no PID for oil pressure.  I suppose you could get a crude estimation of how it behaves if you put the car on a dyno & then watched an add-on gauge.

 

[TopherSho]

I didn't start watching the knock sensor stuff except when I was logging wot for a tuner until AFTER I began hearing the knock and noticed the puff of smoke. That's when I was like, "Wth is that!?"

I didn't see the knock then start hearing it. The other way around actually.

Not my truck, but start listening at about 9 seconds.


https://youtu.be/Nmn0YX2ibSo

That's what it sounds like. Popping or clicking.

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I absolutely believe you based on your description,  the questions is what is causing the knock.  I'd use AJP's Config for datalogging and see if you can get it to do the hard knocking under Factory Tune -meth injection.

...

wait ... /light bulb/

Did the issue start AFTER installing the meth kit and or a aftermarket intake ??

 

[TopherSho]

If it is in fact one cylinder still doing it in oem form it would be a concern to me... borrow a scope and take a look inside.  see what color the plug ceramic and tip is. 

beyond that a log is the best best and or a flight-data-recorder.  tuning around the issue is masking it in my opinion and potentially dangerous under greater tuned loads

 

[TopherSho]

If it is in fact one cylinder still doing it in oem form it would be a concern to me... borrow a scope and take a look inside.  see what color the plug ceramic and tip is. 

beyond that a log is the best best and or a flight-data-recorder.  tuning around the issue is masking it in my opinion and potentially dangerous under greater tuned loads

oh yeah its truck .. just pull the plug that would be easier

*IF* the dealer is willing to take 200$ of your money,  have them swap the injector to another cylinder and get a brand new plug and GAP it yourself.  the only reason i say have the dealer do the swap is pressurized inspectors scare the s*** out of me.

 

[TopherSho]

I'd verify to make sure i'm not wrong, but i am about 99% sure you WANT to keep the .28 1 step colder plugs.  you are dealing with more cylinder pressure and heat than me and i received huge benefits going to .28 and 1 step colder in terms of spark advance under load.

as for testing the injectors the dealer might .. can't hurt to ask if it is that cylinder every time.  but it will cost you a couple bills at least to find out.  but if it is leaking or not actuating correctly you will get a fair amount of that cash back from the warranty.

but i'd do the datalog dance and post it here 1st.. that's free.

 

[TopherSho]

as for testing the injectors the dealer might .. can't hurt to ask if it is that cylinder every time.  but it will cost you a couple bills at least to find out.  but if it is leaking or not actuating correctly you will get a fair amount of that cash back from the warranty.

Might make more sense to put up some cash for diagnosis vs throwing some into parts that take time and sweat to change knowing most of it will be pointless. It would be really nice to verify cylinder 6 is good to go.

I'm not scared to mess with the injectors, but I hardly ever have any time to fool with such things. My fear is really only that I will goof reinstallation in some way and cause a problem where there may be none. I've been told it's a delicate process and you have to be careful.

What do you make of WOT driving looking fine? That's a lot of why I've remained stumped.



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My assumption though probably/possibly wrong is un-metered air or fuel..  so while the logs 'look good' it gets weird under circumstances where a lot less fuel is being sent to the cylinder.  either it is not getting all the fuel it needs,  or it is getting to much fuel to that cylinder.  and visa-versa if there is unmetered air same thing can cause ratio issues.

lastly focusing on one cylinder spark issues can still be a thing.. running one plug with a oem plug might not be a bad test.  bit i remember you stating the issue occurred with oem plugs.

but overall you need to ensure the full system is healthy and make sure in the logs we can see that only one cylinder is the issue while we can also see the rest of the systems are in line using AJP's log.

as to 30 minutes of data,  it will not fit on the device. 38 parameters will fill the device quickly.  you will need to bring a laptop and slave the hand-held to the laptop and use livelink to do the capture.

 

[ZSHO]

I was tapped into the black line in this picture. It's been replaced and now I pull my boost reference from the intake manifold with the pcv delete.

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That surely wasn't a desirable line to tap into for vacuum reference!!
It could of caused a host of issues to arise. Z
Here's my own thread on the Vapor Canister Purge Valve.  http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7133.0.html

 

[ajpturbo]

Why would you want a pcv delete?

 

[ajpturbo]

It wont cause or suck up unmetered air...anything in the intake manifold is metered...only unmetered air would be air sucked in between the cylinder head and primary 02 sensor....the fueling control is determined by speed density (map) rather than maf

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

Why would you want a pcv delete?

Full race catch can.

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PCV delete is a warranty killer FYI.

 

[ajpturbo]

Im just saying you can suck all the air into the manifold you want and it wont really throw things off...its not prone to fuel trims being off from intake leaks like MAF cars

I'll try and look at the logs in this forum but id like to make a new config on my truck and send it to you and you can run some tests

Some of the things i would want

Measured afr bank 1/2
Stft bank 1/2
Ltft bank 1/2
Lambse bank 1/2
Desired tip prs
Map in kpa
Fuel rail pressure
Cyl head or coolant temp in deg. F.

I would do a wot pull in 1st through 3rd and let the truck shift traction off and a 3rd gear sweep in manual mode from 2000-5700 rpm
Spark v2
Knock cyl 1-6 DMR items
Throttle angle actual
Load
Rpm
Iat2
Torque source
Wastegate duty

 

[ajpturbo]

Oops my post and log items got split up....im on phone..but yeah you can put that together....make sure livelink is version 2.8.0.5

With you saying the main issues are knock and knock retard that would not make me suspicious of air leaks....but rather fuel , electrical, and tune

You wanting to test and change all these solenoid parts i think is blind at this point but you are understandably frustrated and desperate

 

[ajpturbo]

Any chance when you were spraying meth you were pushing the boost and spark so hard you messed something up mechanically that is now making noise?

 

[16MagSport]

That video didn't sound like pinging to me.  Stock tune and 87 octane and see if it is worse.  If it is horrible with that fuel, take it in and have them fix it.  Even without a code they would have to accept it is a warranty issue if it pings when you roll on the throttle.  I need to look at a log.  I still can't believe it is stoich with any kind of decent load.  I need to see if I have a part throttle log and see how it enriches it as the load goes up.


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[SHOdded]

The little one has BIG plans 4 daddy!

 

[lamrith]

Not sure who you have doing your tuning (not need to know), but just an FYI but I think AJPTurbo can tune knock by Cylinder.  My car had some odd knock and he switched me to a 6cyl knock log and thought he said the tune was also setup per cylinder.  I could have that wrong, but might be worth touching base with him since you are finding your issue is isolated to one Cyl?

Other option would be to move that knock Cyl to anotehr Cyl and see if issue follows, but based on what you are hearing I doubt it is a sensor issue...