Is our hpfp used in any other di?

[adamantium]

No doubt it's not an easy task. The cam would more than likely have to be a custom grind. It has an extra lobe ( 2nd cam from the left ) to operate the pump. Which also make me wonder if adding a pentagon shaped lobe would increase flow by having 5 pumps per revolution instead of 4. I think the pump lobe is square if I remember right.

Pic for reference.

 

[tgambob]

Thank you for the pids, I'm monitoring fuel pressure demanded and fuel pressure actual. I really wish I could work out a way to do a dual needle gauge lol. After doing my 3 bar today is that is one baby Lil pump, I really feel the a very compact base could be made to run 2 of those belt driven off the front. I have a couple old  compressors at work that look like a great base, probably work for proof of concept anyways. Use the crank on it to make a new cam drive type lobe and put the pump on the plate where the air pump was. V twin base makes a v twin fuel pump.

 

[ajpturbo]

I think it's more sophisticated than that...Good luck though....I just realized you live like 10 minutes from me..

The high pressure pump is an electro mechanical device with actuators and solenoids

That baby pump is capable of deliver fuel for 450hp and over 500ft/lbs tq at the crank

Tgambob, do you know how the pump works?

 

[tgambob]

Not particularly that's why I'm trying to figure this out. I just figured its fixed displacement and used a bypass valve to control fuel pressure probably on a pulse width solenoid. Or is it one of the new variable displacement rotary vane ones? I realize I'm making it sound way simpler then what it is but I have learned over time when I start getting real technical I start losing people. I have access to a engineering department and several machine shops through work. Having people owe you favors is a good thing lol. I got pipe benders, industrial plasma cutters, 3d prototyping all the cool toys. If you are that close man come up and play I got a nice big 8 car garage with whatever you want we can use whenever. Just don't have a lift I do forestry, coal mining and oilfield equipment so a lift is useless. I got the mechanical and electrical part and it seems u have the programming part down to a science we could work some magic

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

Not particularly that's why I'm trying to figure this out. I just figured its fixed displacement and used a bypass valve to control fuel pressure probably on a pulse width solenoid. Or is it one of the new variable displacement rotary vane ones? I realize I'm making it sound way simpler then what it is but I have learned over time when I start getting real technical I start losing people. I have access to a engineering department and several machine shops through work. Having people owe you favors is a good thing lol. I got pipe benders, industrial plasma cutters, 3d prototyping all the cool toys. If you are that close man come up and play I got a nice big 8 car garage with whatever you want we can use whenever. Just don't have a lift I do forestry, coal mining and oilfield equipment so a lift is useless. I got the mechanical and electrical part and it seems u have the programming part down to a science we could work some magic

It is a feed forward system and the pump doesn't control pressure, the injectors do. The pump will do 3K, injectors will do 3700K, but I think the rails are only good to 3K.

OBD troubleshooting guide attached for tgambob.

 

[tgambob]

Thank you for that. That's why I ask so many dumb questions. The fact that there seem to be so many variables and tables in the ecu now make much more sense since everything has to be attributed beforehand. So even if you could Supply more fuel would the system actually utilize it then? Since it's looking at the timing of the pump on its cam lobe that would be a small issue. I didn't think they would actually be looking at the pressure wave of the pump stroke and taking that into effect on the rail pressure

 

[Scott4957]

In this article they show that the 3.5 that they use in the ford GT is nearly identical to ours, but they do in fact use a Bosch pump on each bank like someone else suggested.

http://www.hotrod.com/features/1505-exclusive-look-at-the-engine-that-could-power-fords-all-new-gt/

 

[BiGMaC]

In this article they show that the 3.5 that they use in the ford GT is nearly identical to ours, but they do in fact use a Bosch pump on each bank like someone else suggested.

http://www.hotrod.com/features/1505-exclusive-look-at-the-engine-that-could-power-fords-all-new-gt/

Interesting that they only run about 10psi boost to get that power.

 

[ajpturbo]

In this article they show that the 3.5 that they use in the ford GT is nearly identical to ours, but they do in fact use a Bosch pump on each bank like someone else suggested.

http://www.hotrod.com/features/1505-exclusive-look-at-the-engine-that-could-power-fords-all-new-gt/

Interesting that they only run about 10psi boost to get that power.

Well the redline is higher and they are using race gas and the turbos are much bigger.....my single turbo civic runs 400 whp at 10 psi on pump gas....its all about airflow....bigger turbos move much more

 

[panther427]

Generally speaking higher boost equals higher intake temps. Its all about cfm. The more cfm at the lowest boost and temp is what you want. Higher boost can also be do to. Higher restrictions in the intake tract. The race motor has optimized air intake.  Its all matched between engine rpm. Turbo efficiency. Cam and desired power band. 

 

[Scott4957]

I think the main take away is that they have already built an engine with two hpfp's. Is it more difficult to get the hard parts or the ability to control them?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[ajpturbo]

I'd say hard parts.

Those turbos are probably good for 1000hp so I'm not surprised at the output...All about airflow....Temps can be fixed by intercoolers and racegas

 

[tgambob]

I thought the gt uses the 3.5 phase 2 which shared nothing going but the displacement? Also the list the 2015 sho as having dual variable cam but I thought we just had the intake and the trucks had both? On to other things I wonder if that head is a whole new casting or a machined production head for that second fuel pump. Or maybe they simply machined it to have 2 of the same heads? That sounds about the easiest way to do it one would think.

 

[tgambob]

Ok after some more poking around I keep coming up with roush yates saying it's stock heads with no real machining, so could it be as easy as getting a second fuel pump pedestal and cam ( well valve covers but those look like sheet metal jobs) and have 2 pumps? All the pics seem to show it on the right place on the head for just using the pedestal on the other side.

 

[ajpturbo]

Yes get on it...so then you need to tap into the low pressure fuel line and run that to the new high pressure pump. Then run the new high pressure fuel with lines and fittings that can handle 3000 psi to the existing line and into the rail

 

[Scott4957]

Yes get on it...so then you need to tap into the low pressure fuel line and run that to the new high pressure pump. Then run the new high pressure fuel with lines and fittings that can handle 3000 psi to the existing line and into the rail

Easy peasy

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[tgambob]

Sadly that is the easy part. Pirteck hose guy is at my shop about every other day and can get me about any fitting you can imagine. 3000 isn't that much I won't even put a hose or fitting rated for under 5k on any piece of forestry equipment. If nothing else I will use the fittings off of one of the junk diesels, common rail fittings should hold up just fine. Nothing that a tig and a redneck mentality can't fix

 

[Scott4957]

Sadly that is the easy part. Pirteck hose guy is at my shop about every other day and can get me about any fitting you can imagine. 3000 isn't that much I won't even put a hose or fitting rated for under 5k on any piece of forestry equipment. If nothing else I will use the fittings off of one of the junk diesels, common rail fittings should hold up just fine. Nothing that a tig and a redneck mentality can't fix

I agree, that is the easy part. I was talking about getting the other parts. If we can source those someone will do it!

 

[tgambob]

Well I just bought that hpfp mount off ebay for 30 bucks, comes with the cam follower. Now the question will be if this thing just bolts in place of cam caps or not. Can't really find a good exploded diagram or parts callout.  I'm trying to find a random set of heads off a 3.5 but they seem to be non existent, I figured I could pick up a set off a blown motor but so far no luck. I wonder if just using 2 of the same intake cam will work

 

[SHOdded]

Isn't there an exta lobe on the cam just to run the HPFP?  You'd have to see if you could mirror that cam to the other head.

AA5Z-6250-B CAMSHAFT
TAURUS SHO; PRODUCTION ENGINES ONLY; INTAKE; LEFT
$160.85 $110.99

AA5Z-6250-A CAMSHAFT
TAURUS SHO; PRODUCTION ENGINES ONLY; INTAKE; RIGHT
$80.47 $55.52

https://s3.amazonaws.com/rparts-illustrations/strapr1/c30cd25cf555cd65fa0e61e7a2411e11/52d81df44bf51c5221508771c3b3c2f0.png

This is a pic of the cams from an F150, SHO should be similar.  2nd cam from top I believe.

Discussion of the arrangement on a Focus ST:
http://www.focusst.org/forum/focus-st-discussions/2334-high-pressure-fuel-pump-follower-question.html

Other details on the 2.0EB for those interested:
http://www.full-race.com/articles/ford-fusion-ecoboost-history.html

Arrangement on the 2.3 EB (4 lobe roller instead of flat tappet):

An older post, but a peek into the Focus ST DI design:
http://www.ecoboostforums.org/ford-focus-st-fuel-system-the-story-of-direct-injection-lessons-already-learned/

Upgraded cam follower in the VAG market:
http://hpfpupgrade.com/Products/Show/Audi/2.0T+FSI/Audi+FSI+Performance+Cam+Follower

What makes our cam follower different?

The basic design of our cam follower is different over the OEM unit.  We moved the holes from the face of the cam follower to the edge.  This move in the holes will aid in lubrication to the face of the cam follower.  We made our cam followers from a different material, this material has been used in lifter, cam shaft buckets and shims for the last 30 years.  Why the OEM FSI cam follower is made of tool steel... no idea.  We have added material to the surface contact to eliminate defection and our cam follower face to wall interface has a taper down design that shares the load through the transition.

The most important part of our cam follower is the hard chrome face.  The hard chrome has been used for years in lifters, cam shaft buckets, and shims in many different applications.  These other applications have seen loads more than double the load of a FSI fuel pump at 150 bar of fuel pressure.  The technical details are all over the internet showing the benefits of hard chrome for this application, why the OEM cam follower doesn't use hard chrome... no idea.

During our testing we tried several different coatings, ranging from dry film lubricants to VPD applications.  We had followers with DLC coatings and every coating that 3M makes.  We even tried some armory coatings for weapons production.  With all the testing we didn't find a single coating that could compare or perform at the level our hard chrome could.  The coefficient friction of hard chrome is better dry than most of the other coatings tested wet.  Hard chrome wet testing had more than two times the coefficient friction "lubricity" of any wet test from the others.  This was a case of trying to make a better part, but the best was already tested, tried and trued for us... hard chrome was the solution.