Livernois Firestorm HPFP Installed
- Thread starter StealBlueSHO
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Livernois Motorsports
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AJP turbo said:
You really need to pay attention to weather and conditions. The stock pump is no where near adequate for these cars once you raise boost even a 4-6 inHg (2-3lbs) in the northern climates. Pump drop does indeed cause problems. When the high pressure fuel drops and air fuel ratios raise we let the throttle close and limit boost. I have seen several tunes from people who just shut all this off. The problems seem to rise around this time of the year and later and can cause problems.
What do you mean more efficient? I have never have seen a stock pump dropping pressure efficient?
Just dont want to give the community bad information
Thanks
LME
Livernois Motorsports said:
Yes all that is well understood.....I think it’s more accurate to say lower pump pressure CAN cause problems rather than DOES as you say.
I agree On not spreading bad info.....various levels of throttle control can be used to control how quickly the throttle steps in and in colder climates that can be a tool to help fuel pressure recover faster or not drop at all...but not even that can help fuel pressure if irresponsible boost levels are being used
I will look at the table when I get home but look at the VE table for the high pressure pump...when pressure is lower the pump is operating more efficiently...it’s just like the turbos....can they run 20 psi sure are they happier at 13 sure....I’m not saying that 1200 psi fuel pressure is ideal but the stock pump does better there....and just because fuel pressure drops that does not mean air fuels will rise...injector pulsewidth will rise though this is all assuming you are not out of injector...but stock turbos keep you in the safe zone generally...but this is where data logs are invaluable
Can the HPFP run 2900 psi sure but according to the table it’s happier being lower
The VE is not the same however for a different pump
I haven’t see a direct link of 1500 psi for instance inducing knock...sometimes you may see a spike there and it may be from something else...ive seen knock sensors adding spark at 1500 psi and during boost spikes also
I just can’t and won’t say that a pressure dip is going to cause eminent failure
At what point is pressure adequate? If 2100 psi is good is 3000 better then we are all running too low...
All the focus on the pump too....the injectors are basically pegged and if you aren’t running insufficient fuel flow ,that also can be logged ,it’s probably right at that point so everyone may already be on the edge anyway...every one wants a warm and fuzzy feeling about their cars because someone like me says they are ok or a company like livernois says they are safe but that’s why I hate magic number values that people throw on cars...but at the end of the day we are all hot rodding these things
Livernois Motorsports
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AJP turbo said:
OK, not sure where we can agree on this. Firstly, dropping fuel pressure absolutely causes issues. Ideal situations maintain commanded pressure +/- 5% or so. Messing with PID gains to try to bandaid this still leaves a large potential for stuff to go sideways since it's completely reactive to the pressure falling. Pressure drop is absolutely a bad, bad thing on the fuel system, something we will cover more as we continue. Also, most of these functions impact some other aspect of the calibration behind the scenes. Often, calculations for effective combustion pressure limits and other gains get impacted by changing these items. Basically, changing 1 thing in an EcoBoost never impacts only that 1 thing.
AJP turbo said:
This is very misleading. Every fuel pump on the planet operates more efficiently with less pressure. Pressure, whether Boost, or fuel, is a measure of restriction. The higher the pressure, the more volume is being forced through, and harder said "pump" has to work for similar increases. Injector pulsewidth can't overcome cylinder pressure. Only fuel pressure can do that. Telling people it's not "ideal, but it runs better there" in terms of the pump is beyond playing with fire. It shows a lack of understanding for the full range of how GDI actually needs to operate. remember, the injector is what delivers the fuel. If the pump flows more, and the injector flows less at the reduced pressure, which one is actually putting the fuel into the cylinder?
Turbos have this same phenomenon for the same reason. Pressure is a measure of restriction. So while all of this might seem like a good "reason" it's ok to run lower pressure, it's not. It's simply how things work. that doesn't mean you should be ok with drops in fuel pressure.
Other damage can happen to these engines other than just running lean. Misfires can cause severe damage to other parts/pieces (especially cats, and turbos). And often, we see failed injectors because of them not firing properly.
AJP turbo said:
as mentioned above, that's how every fuel pump works, the pumps happiness is trivial since it is a supporting role only for ensuring proper fuel flow. Pressure is what's needed first and foremost, flow is secondary. Since maintaining pressure can only be done by maintaining flow, your argument is counter-intuitive.
AJP turbo said:
Knock, misfires, inadequate fuel delivery, and reduction in power are just some of the more important things that can happen from drops in pressure. Everything you are talking about happens to be reactive items. The knock adder can add timing, until the knock sensor detects knock of course. And this always has a delay in it. Basically just because it's adding timing doesn't mean it's not going to knock. Additionally, what's the refresh rate? I guarantee you that the log is missing an event here or there.
If pressure drops enough it won't even fire the injector because cylinder pressure exceeds rail pressure. You have to remember that, just like Boost pressure on a PFI car ,cylinder pressure directly impacts fuel flow into the cylinder. so 1100psi of cylinder pressure combined with 1500 psi or fail pressure is only 400psi of effective pressure on the injector.
AJP turbo said:
this depends on the specific needs. We have EcoBoost vehicles we command and achieve over 3000 psi with. Certain builds respond better to certain pressures, but some need that much pressure. Increasing pressure automatically increases the usable range of the injector. While doubling the pressure doesn't double flow, it does substantially increase the flow rate of the injector, extending it's capabilities.
The difference as far as people asking what is, or isn't safe it we've got nearly 10 years and 30k+ EcoBoost cars/trucks we've done and had nary an issue with. We can assure people, it's not from disabling safety logic, or dumbing it down. It's been by playing by the rules, understanding how every calibration item plays it's role, and knowing why all these safety limits exist, and how the calibration truly impacts the entire engine as a whole.
in summary, pressure drop is always a negative, and sometimes a major issue. But it will also impact performance, durability, or both. The only way to mitigate this is by installing an upgraded pump and corresponding calibration.
And a reminder to people playing around with E30. These cars are out of fuel in 70+ degree weather on E10 and a tune. Running higher ethanol runs out sooner. Add in colder weather and the term playing with fire is not attention grabbing enough.
SHOdded said:Good discussion going! BTW who is representing LME this go round? Sometimes Dan chimes in too
While I like Cody and Anthony a whole lot.. this response doesn’t “sound” like either of them...
Perhaps the “Head Calibrator” as Manu suggested? If so, I hope Cody made sure to pass on the thank you for the the updated tune!
And I can’t remember that last time we had a really good technical discussion going on.
:
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Yes very good
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StealBlueSho said:SHOdded said:Good discussion going! BTW who is representing LME this go round? Sometimes Dan chimes in too
While I like Cody and Anthony a whole lot.. this response doesn’t “sound” like either of them...
Perhaps the “Head Calibrator” as Manu suggested? If so, I hope Cody made sure to pass on the thank you for the the updated tune!
And I can’t remember that last time we had a really good technical discussion going on.
:
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I got a guy. I'll send you his info when I get back to the PC
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StealBlueSho said:ZSHO said:I think LMS Dyno is spot on @ 415whp-465wtq which netted me a Trap Speed of almost 116-mph! Second thought it might be on the conservative side! Z
Definitely need to get her on the Dyno to see where your @ ! Best of luck.
I need a damn dyno! LoL... it’s not from lack of trying...
Although DPs would help... Corsa and DPs are next on the list.. probably January time frame.
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StinkinLinkin13
New member
StealBlueSho said:Yes, I am VERY excited about this latest tune from LMS. Cody messaged me saying him, Anthony, and their "head tuner" stayed late to put this together for me. And the results in the datalog as well as the seat of the pants feel are really really impressive.
Yes, I have bounced around on the tuning front.. Unleashed, AJPTurbo, BCB, Gearhead, and Livernois between my 2010 and 2016 SHO. I have ALWAYS been impressed with how SMOOTH the LMS tune runs and how clean the datalogs look. I may have been at points underwhelmed with the load I see in the datalogs but have never been disappointed in the ET with LMS but more importantly the consistency in their ET/MPH. Glory runs will get respect from a lot... but dialing in and running a low time consistently wins respect AND money.
I will post logs later but a few examples of things that really stand out are..
1: Timing advance on LMS is SMOOTH... I have YET to see another tuner get spark v2 to follow spark.. silky smooth.. people who datalog know what I am talking about..
2: Boost.. when LMS commands boost its not for the mid range of RPMS.. they command it all the way through redline which is impressive. A tuner may say they command 15psi but they taper off hard at the topend.. LMS holds its all the way to shift..
3: cam positioning..if you look at the exhaust and intake cam position it is very different than any other tune.
Based on my various track visits... and I have been talking to BamSHO, BPD1151, and various others.. I am still baffled at how a tune that demands much less load runs just as fast as tune that call for 3-4 psi and more timing(much more load).. I have posted on the forums asking about it...
Needless to say again... Livernois Engineering has shown over and over again through the various tuners that they are able to get the most of this platform. I ran the same times with a tune that pushed 1.65 average load through third gear from one tuner as a tune from LMS that only pushed 1.52 average through third gear...
And I am not just kissing their booty as anyone can attest.. I am the first one to call them out on when I believe they are wrong or misguiding, and with data not just opinion. I try to be impartial in all reviews as it has shown to be valuable to new people joining the forums (You're welcome Brad for the business
All that being said.. THIS LATEST E30 TUNE FROM LME IS THE BEST TUNE I HAVE RECIEVED.
This all sounds fine and dandy for you. Which is great. But For the rest of us... We get what we get from Livernois... I'm looking into E30 tunes myself and it kind of sucks having to buy another tuner and pay someone else to do it using data logs... If I knew then what I new now I most likely would have gone another route with tuner selection. Livernois is great until you get to this point. Which admittedly not everyone will.
StinkinLinkin13 said:StealBlueSho said:Yes, I am VERY excited about this latest tune from LMS. Cody messaged me saying him, Anthony, and their "head tuner" stayed late to put this together for me. And the results in the datalog as well as the seat of the pants feel are really really impressive.
Yes, I have bounced around on the tuning front.. Unleashed, AJPTurbo, BCB, Gearhead, and Livernois between my 2010 and 2016 SHO. I have ALWAYS been impressed with how SMOOTH the LMS tune runs and how clean the datalogs look. I may have been at points underwhelmed with the load I see in the datalogs but have never been disappointed in the ET with LMS but more importantly the consistency in their ET/MPH. Glory runs will get respect from a lot... but dialing in and running a low time consistently wins respect AND money.
I will post logs later but a few examples of things that really stand out are..
1: Timing advance on LMS is SMOOTH... I have YET to see another tuner get spark v2 to follow spark.. silky smooth.. people who datalog know what I am talking about..
2: Boost.. when LMS commands boost its not for the mid range of RPMS.. they command it all the way through redline which is impressive. A tuner may say they command 15psi but they taper off hard at the topend.. LMS holds its all the way to shift..
3: cam positioning..if you look at the exhaust and intake cam position it is very different than any other tune.
Based on my various track visits... and I have been talking to BamSHO, BPD1151, and various others.. I am still baffled at how a tune that demands much less load runs just as fast as tune that call for 3-4 psi and more timing(much more load).. I have posted on the forums asking about it...
Needless to say again... Livernois Engineering has shown over and over again through the various tuners that they are able to get the most of this platform. I ran the same times with a tune that pushed 1.65 average load through third gear from one tuner as a tune from LMS that only pushed 1.52 average through third gear...
And I am not just kissing their booty as anyone can attest.. I am the first one to call them out on when I believe they are wrong or misguiding, and with data not just opinion. I try to be impartial in all reviews as it has shown to be valuable to new people joining the forums (You're welcome Brad for the business
All that being said.. THIS LATEST E30 TUNE FROM LME IS THE BEST TUNE I HAVE RECIEVED.
This all sounds fine and dandy for you. Which is great. But For the rest of us... We get what we get from Livernois... I'm looking into E30 tunes myself and it kind of sucks having to buy another tuner and pay someone else to do it using data logs... If I knew then what I new now I most likely would have gone another route with tuner selection. Livernois is great until you get to this point. Which admittedly not everyone will.
It’s the triangle right “reliability, performance, and cost”.... you will never get all three.
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SHOdded said:You can get all 3 but you have to fudgeUpgrade critical components, and compare to the OLD setup, not the resulting setup!
True... and it’s where you want to put your money... a Corsa Exhaust + downpipes cost more than a HPFP...but the HPFP will allow you to run E30 safely... trade offs I suppose.
Which btw should be ordered here soon... ATPs and a trip the LMS hopefully by spring time frame.
My plans for a motor went sideways when the market tanked...my RSU’s from my previous employer took a huge hit :-(
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Livernois Motorsports
New member
If you were to reach out to us and had the right mods for it we could definitely do the same thing for you, but you need the high pressure fuel pump for anything extra, as we said earlier the taurus sho with E10 when it is not even cold out yet so once the temperature outside actually begins to drop fuel pressure becomes an issue and is pushed past the limit of its fueling, so for us to push a tune like that without the right accommodating mods would just cause issues for peoples vehicles but we have done too many of these cars and know what they can and cannot handle. If you wanted to follow down the same path as steelbluesho we could definitely follow suit for you as well or anyone else as long as it is the correct parametersStinkinLinkin13 said:StealBlueSho said:Yes, I am VERY excited about this latest tune from LMS. Cody messaged me saying him, Anthony, and their "head tuner" stayed late to put this together for me. And the results in the datalog as well as the seat of the pants feel are really really impressive.
Yes, I have bounced around on the tuning front.. Unleashed, AJPTurbo, BCB, Gearhead, and Livernois between my 2010 and 2016 SHO. I have ALWAYS been impressed with how SMOOTH the LMS tune runs and how clean the datalogs look. I may have been at points underwhelmed with the load I see in the datalogs but have never been disappointed in the ET with LMS but more importantly the consistency in their ET/MPH. Glory runs will get respect from a lot... but dialing in and running a low time consistently wins respect AND money.
I will post logs later but a few examples of things that really stand out are..
1: Timing advance on LMS is SMOOTH... I have YET to see another tuner get spark v2 to follow spark.. silky smooth.. people who datalog know what I am talking about..
2: Boost.. when LMS commands boost its not for the mid range of RPMS.. they command it all the way through redline which is impressive. A tuner may say they command 15psi but they taper off hard at the topend.. LMS holds its all the way to shift..
3: cam positioning..if you look at the exhaust and intake cam position it is very different than any other tune.
Based on my various track visits... and I have been talking to BamSHO, BPD1151, and various others.. I am still baffled at how a tune that demands much less load runs just as fast as tune that call for 3-4 psi and more timing(much more load).. I have posted on the forums asking about it...
Needless to say again... Livernois Engineering has shown over and over again through the various tuners that they are able to get the most of this platform. I ran the same times with a tune that pushed 1.65 average load through third gear from one tuner as a tune from LMS that only pushed 1.52 average through third gear...
And I am not just kissing their booty as anyone can attest.. I am the first one to call them out on when I believe they are wrong or misguiding, and with data not just opinion. I try to be impartial in all reviews as it has shown to be valuable to new people joining the forums (You're welcome Brad for the business
All that being said.. THIS LATEST E30 TUNE FROM LME IS THE BEST TUNE I HAVE RECIEVED.
This all sounds fine and dandy for you. Which is great. But For the rest of us... We get what we get from Livernois... I'm looking into E30 tunes myself and it kind of sucks having to buy another tuner and pay someone else to do it using data logs... If I knew then what I new now I most likely would have gone another route with tuner selection. Livernois is great until you get to this point. Which admittedly not everyone will.
I definitely did don't worry! We have a few different people that check on and make posts on the boards from time to timeStealBlueSho said:SHOdded said:Good discussion going! BTW who is representing LME this go round? Sometimes Dan chimes in too
While I like Cody and Anthony a whole lot.. this response doesn’t “sound” like either of them...
Perhaps the “Head Calibrator” as Manu suggested? If so, I hope Cody made sure to pass on the thank you for the the updated tune!
And I can’t remember that last time we had a really good technical discussion going on.
:
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Livernois Motorsports
New member
We would love to have the car in here, you definitely need to make the trip as soon as you can!StealBlueSho said:SHOdded said:You can get all 3 but you have to fudge
True... and it’s where you want to put your money... a Corsa Exhaust + downpipes cost more than a HPFP...but the HPFP will allow you to run E30 safely... trade offs I suppose.
Which btw should be ordered here soon... ATPs and a trip the LMS hopefully by spring time frame.
My plans for a motor went sideways when the market tanked...my RSU’s from my previous employer took a huge hit :-(
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Livernois Motorsports
New member
StealBlueSho said:Livernois Motorsports said:We would love to have the car in here, you definitely need to make the trip as soon as you can!StealBlueSho said:We will get everything figured out don't worry!SHOdded said:You can get all 3 but you have to fudge
True... and it’s where you want to put your money... a Corsa Exhaust + downpipes cost more than a HPFP...but the HPFP will allow you to run E30 safely... trade offs I suppose.
Which btw should be ordered here soon... ATPs and a trip the LMS hopefully by spring time frame.
My plans for a motor went sideways when the market tanked...my RSU’s from my previous employer took a huge hit :-(
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Trying to iron out the details! Thanks!
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StinkinLinkin13
New member
So just to be clear... This is NOT the "Severe Firestorm" HPFP is it? Sorry if I missed it in the thread.
StinkinLinkin13 said:
No, the Firestorm.
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StinkinLinkin13
New member
Ok Thanks... Quite the price jump between the two.
StinkinLinkin13 said:
Yes there is... and the Firestorm supports enough fuel to generate more power than the stock block can handle...
The severe might be needed for full E85 setups when they figure out the low side fuel pumps...
LMS did say they have a meth tuned SHO running full E85 with just the upgraded Firestorm pump, stock injectors, and stock lpfp...
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