Livernois Motorsports catted downpipes will NOT pass state inspection

[derfdog15]

Here is a link to the PPE pipes for the F150, as you can see they state the cats used will keep the CEL off, however still no guarantee that you pass a readiness check (though if the CEL is not set then you should be in ready state)

http://www.ppeengineering-onlinestore.com/Ford-F150-Ecoboost-V6-25-3-High-flow-Cats-130005.htm

Another option, would be to purchase a more efficient catalytic converter (such as what PPE uses) and swap that in to the current pipes (possibly with flanges to allow for you remove the cats and add straight pipe once you have passed inspection)

Further option, would be to try and find a used set of OEM pipes, from someone that has upgraded and does not need them, and swap those in, then swap back to the LME pipes after.

 

[Kcope2006]

Well I bought 2 "mini CAT" extenders/non-foulers to install and try first. I figure $100 and an easy install is worth the attempt. They have the platinum-rhodium honeycombs in them so we'll see. They'll be in tomorrow so by time I get them, install and drive around to get through the drive cycle I should know something this weekend. I'm praying I'll get lucky and it works.

If that doesn't work then I'll probably look for used OEM downpipes to install for the inspection and then have to put the LMS hi-flow pipes back.

Another side note: I'm obviously frustrated with the stupid state inspection mess I'm dealing with but I have to give props to LMS for the performance package. The truck runs beautifully on the 93 performance tune and I'm getting some serious increases in torque and HP and you can feel it not only when I put the pedal to the floor but even in day to day driving. The throttle response and shifting is greatly improved and my gas mileage has gone up about 2mpg in my daily commute. I haven't tried the Xv1 Race tune yet but I will as soon as I get past the hurdle with the inspection.

Again, thank all of you for the help/suggestions and I'll keep you posted.

 

[ZSHO]

If you have torque pro you can certainly monitor the I/M readiness status but unfortunately as mentioned a while back it can take sometimes up to 200 miles before all monitors are ready, especially the heated catalyst and best of luck to ya. Z
Here's a great link below on the obd monitor's.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/obd_monitor_not_ready.htm

 

[Blackhawk]

The manual may have instructions on how to run through the full cycle of tests, I've seen it now in a lot of modern vehicles.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Just to add some clarity. First, and foremost, why we offer catted downpipes, and primarily recommend them are for a number of reasons. #1 smell. I don't know anyone that would want to deal with the stench of a non-catted setup on anything, but especially cars and trucks as nice as this. #2 at least there is some improvement in emissions vs. non-cats, even though it's for race use, it's not a bad thing to make it cleaner than no cats would do. #3 raspiness, cats do help with the tone of the exhaust. #4 the power difference is not what most people think. While there is an improvement from downpipes in power, a high flow race cat vs. no cat is only about 2-3hp difference on builds exceeding 700hp. So, it's a fallacy that ditching cats vs. a race cat is going to unlock power. It's lucky to be 2hp on anything EcoBoost. #5 oil smoke, ecoboost vehicles have a high tendency to have some amount of oil smoke, even when stock, but by ditching cats entirely, this almost becomes a guarantee that it will have oil smoke.

Now, as for running a different cat, now you have a tradeoff. For a catalyst to be better at it's job, there are a number of things that much be true. #1 is it will be more restrictive. This means it will be more restrictive than a comparable cat that is less effective. To offset this, you can make the cat larger, but we're talking substantially so. It's not linear, meaning a 50% reduction in flow through the brick does not mean you increase it 50% to offset the loss in flow, a good baseline is doubling it in size to get back to your starting point. But, since this would be an exceptionally expensive catalyst assembly, no one does that, so, instead, they accept a reduction in flow to achieve this efficiency in conversion of emissions. So, you've now put a downpipe on the car to gain flow, but then put a cat on it that flows similar to stock for the chance of not setting a light.

 

[ajpturbo]

If there is little difference as you state between no cat and catted then why are you saying that a larger more efficient cat will restrict flow?...seems a little better acting catalytic converter that would not throw codes would be worth it...i would say LMS dropped the ball and should've made a cat pipe that would set I/M monitors since you say that flow is not greatly improved by going catless

Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know

Members have reported rasp from catted pipes as well

If you have oil smoke from the catless pipes you have a turbo oil sytem problem period...could be oil drain, seals  , crank case pressure, intake restriction

I would say the big benefit of catless is the fact that they reduce thermal load on the turbo which will help life when running the turbos hard like we all do with 3 bar tunes

 

[derfdog15]

If there is little difference as you state between no cat and catted then why are you saying that a larger more efficient cat will restrict flow?...seems a little better acting catalytic converter that would not throw codes would be worth it...i would say LMS dropped the ball and should've made a cat pipe that would set I/M monitors since you say that flow is not greatly improved by going catless

Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know

Members have reported rasp from catted pipes as well

If you have oil smoke from the catless pipes you have a turbo oil sytem problem period...could be oil drain, seals  , crank case pressure, intake restriction

I would say the big benefit of catless is the fact that they reduce thermal load on the turbo which will help life when running the turbos hard like we all do with 3 bar tunes

Seconded, for a 2 hp loss, that warrants selling a more expensive but cleaner emitting downpipe (and heavier as well, plus think about the emissions impact of producing a catalytic converer...I digress)... why not lose another.5 hp and have one that is as clean as stock, atleast with regards to what the rear O2 sees.

And as for smell, nail on the head. Granted I have the same SW pipes that AJPTurbo had, but with my third cat in place, and summit race mufflers I have not noticed much of a smell difference. Stock vs. catless it always had a slight gas smell on a cold start. On warm start I can't tell a difference. Most people leave the 3rd cat, until going with a catback, and even then, I doubt there would be a major smell change.

 

[SHOdded]

If there is little difference as you state between no cat and catted then why are you saying that a larger more efficient cat will restrict flow?...seems a little better acting catalytic converter that would not throw codes would be worth it...i would say LMS dropped the ball and should've made a cat pipe that would set I/M monitors since you say that flow is not greatly improved by going catless

Don't know that the ball was dropped at all.  Last I heard, LME uses the same highflow Magnaflow units that PPE does, the rest is just a pipe, so hard to understand the difference, if any.  Do we have enough people chiming in to say that with LME downpipes and a stock tune, they did not pass a sniffer test or an OBD test?  Same Q about the rear O2s being turned off.  With a stock tune, they would be turned back on.

No, they are not saying a larger cat would restrict flow.  They ARE saying that in order to be as efficient as the OEM needs a cat to be to meet EPA standards, as well as meet the packaging requirements of the vehicle, the cat is designed to be relatively small and restrictive.  You would have to install a larger cat to achieve less restriction, higher flow, and still meet the OEM cat's catalytic efficiency.

Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know

Olfactory senses differ, SMH, LOL.  But cold starts will yield the worst of the output.  Remember GTDI is very similar to diesel technology, and the emissions are quite similar in nature.  That is to say, quite carcinogenic.  I would not want to be breathing in that crap for even a short period of time.  Why would you want others to?

Members have reported rasp from catted pipes as well

Generally not with PPE downpipes.  With SW downpipes, yes, but they do not use the Magnaflow hiflow units.

If you have oil smoke from the catless pipes you have a turbo oil sytem problem period...could be oil drain, seals  , crank case pressure, intake restriction

True, the most frequent case being a turbo seal.  OEM turbo seals, at least on 2010-12 units, have been known to be weak.  So a tune or a catback/turboback has been "blamed" for its' failure.  Having more cats in the path restricts efficiency, but also removes more particulate matter/emissions.

I would say the big benefit of catless is the fact that they reduce thermal load on the turbo which will help life when running the turbos hard like we all do with 3 bar tunes
And we want to help the turbos live as long as possible!

 

[ZSHO]

If there is little difference as you state between no cat and catted then why are you saying that a larger more efficient cat will restrict flow?...seems a little better acting catalytic converter that would not throw codes would be worth it...i would say LMS dropped the ball and should've made a cat pipe that would set I/M monitors since you say that flow is not greatly improved by going catless

Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know

Members have reported rasp from catted pipes as well

If you have oil smoke from the catless pipes you have a turbo oil sytem problem period...could be oil drain, seals  , crank case pressure, intake restriction

I would say the big benefit of catless is the fact that they reduce thermal load on the turbo which will help life when running the turbos hard like we all do with 3 bar tunes

Seconded, for a 2 hp loss, that warrants selling a more expensive but cleaner emitting downpipe (and heavier as well, plus think about the emissions impact of producing a catalytic converer...I digress)... why not lose another.5 hp and have one that is as clean as stock, atleast with regards to what the rear O2 sees.

And as for smell, nail on the head. Granted I have the same SW pipes that AJPTurbo had, but with my third cat in place, and summit race mufflers I have not noticed much of a smell difference. Stock vs. catless it always had a slight gas smell on a cold start. On warm start I can't tell a difference. Most people leave the 3rd cat, until going with a catback, and even then, I doubt there would be a major smell change.

I beg to differ!!!! no gas smell here cold or warm with 40K+tuned miles. Z

 

[derfdog15]

Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know

And as for smell, nail on the head. Granted I have the same SW pipes that AJPTurbo had, but with my third cat in place, and summit race mufflers I have not noticed much of a smell difference. Stock vs. catless it always had a slight gas smell on a cold start. On warm start I can't tell a difference. Most people leave the 3rd cat, until going with a catback, and even then, I doubt there would be a major smell change.

I beg to differ!!!! no gas smell here cold or warm with 40K+tuned miles. Z

I am not referring to a smell in cabin, I am referring to literally standing in front of the exhaust pipes, as the exhaust clouds out due to the hot gas hitting frigid air. There is a faint hint of gasoline in that scenario, which has been the case on my car since it was brand new. Not noticeable next to the car or in it/in front of.

I have noticed an almost identical smell to what I am describing with any vehicle that I have driven in the cold, my old 04 F150 did it, my mustang does it, my moms fusion, my grandmas focus. Everyone one of those vehicles, including mustang and F150 had all stock catalytic converts. Other than the mustang and F150 the entire exhaust system stock on those cars.

I may have a more acute sense to the smell of gas than you, who knows. But the statement/fact remains that on my car, catless downpipes and 3rd cat has not changed smell, and I doubt there would be much difference with a 3rd cat delete, but can not make a factual statement regarding my car in that scenario because I have not done it yet.

As always, cars are different, people are different, so who knows, maybe with my car but you near it you would not notice a smell? Maybe your car, and me in the scenario I described - I would smell something?

I think both of our cars, and senses are different. Good discussion here, but at this point you and I debating whether our cars have a smell isn't of much value to this thread IMO.

 

[ZSHO]

Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know

And as for smell, nail on the head. Granted I have the same SW pipes that AJPTurbo had, but with my third cat in place, and summit race mufflers I have not noticed much of a smell difference. Stock vs. catless it always had a slight gas smell on a cold start. On warm start I can't tell a difference. Most people leave the 3rd cat, until going with a catback, and even then, I doubt there would be a major smell change.

I beg to differ!!!! no gas smell here cold or warm with 40K+tuned miles. Z

I am not referring to a smell in cabin, I am referring to literally standing in front of the exhaust pipes, as the exhaust clouds out due to the hot gas hitting frigid air. There is a faint hint of gasoline in that scenario, which has been the case on my car since it was brand new. Not noticeable next to the car or in it/in front of.

I have noticed an almost identical smell to what I am describing with any vehicle that I have driven in the cold, my old 04 F150 did it, my mustang does it, my moms fusion, my grandmas focus. Everyone one of those vehicles, including mustang and F150 had all stock catalytic converts. Other than the mustang and F150 the entire exhaust system stock on those cars.

I may have a more acute sense to the smell of gas than you, who knows. But the statement/fact remains that on my car, catless downpipes and 3rd cat has not changed smell, and I doubt there would be much difference with a 3rd cat delete, but can not make a factual statement regarding my car in that scenario because I have not done it yet.

As always, cars are different, people are different, so who knows, maybe with my car but you near it you would not notice a smell? Maybe your car, and me in the scenario I described - I would smell something?

I think both of our cars, and senses are different. Good discussion here, but at this point you and I debating whether our cars have a smell isn't of much value to this thread IMO.

Derfdog BTW, last time I checked this is a public forum and everyone is welcomed to share his/her's opinion AFAIK and open for discussions. Z

 

[Kcope2006]

Well, as you all had already stated the "mini CAT" O2 non-foulers didn't work. It throws P013A/P013C codes.

Doing a little more digging on the LMS website there is not "off-road use only" disclaimer on the Stage 2 kit product page, which is where I located and shopped for the parts. There IS a disclaimer if you only look at the catted down pipe product page.

All hope is lost and it looks like I'm going to have to spend a lot more time and money to correct this which is frustrating. Yet again, thank you all for the comments and suggestions. I'm going to do some research to find out what the least troublesome solution would be; whether that's buying OEM downpipes to install to pass inspection or trying to sell my LMS downpipes products and switch to PPE. Or if I'm going to just abandon all of it and go back to all factory parts.

I really wish my first delve into aftermarket upgrades would have gone smoother than this...

 

[SHOdded]

So you have tried the LME downpipes + OEM tune + drive cycle completion route?  You can always pull the neg batt cable for 30 min/try the KAM reset procedure then do the drive cycle again on the OEM tune.

 

[derfdog15]

Well, as you all had already stated the "mini CAT" O2 non-foulers didn't work. It throws P013A/P013C codes.

Doing a little more digging on the LMS website there is not "off-road use only" disclaimer on the Stage 2 kit product page, which is where I located and shopped for the parts. There IS a disclaimer if you only look at the catted down pipe product page.

All hope is lost and it looks like I'm going to have to spend a lot more time and money to correct this which is frustrating. Yet again, thank you all for the comments and suggestions. I'm going to do some research to find out what the least troublesome solution would be; whether that's buying OEM downpipes to install to pass inspection or trying to sell my LMS downpipes products and switch to PPE. Or if I'm going to just abandon all of it and go back to all factory parts.

I really wish my first delve into aftermarket upgrades would have gone smoother than this...

Sorry for your troubles once again, I have noticed the LME site seems to have some inconsistencies/typos, and IMO, I would take a screenshot of the page you purchased from (to validate that it does not state off-road use only) and talk to LME about correcting this on their end (ie. taking care of you as you did not know and the page you looked at did not tell you there may be emissions related issues).

As for the mini-cats, what happened here is the reason I generally stay with tried and trued options, instead of trying to go off on my own, as sometimes you just throw the money away.

Your best bet for a set it and forget it option, is to go with PPE pipes, which will pass readiness tests (though they may not pass sniffer tests), you will get the benefits of larger pipes with better spool over the stock pipes.

If you want to do a little more work on your end, then I say try to find stock pipes (or have yours repaired - I believe you mentioned yours had an issue which is why you went aftermarket, correct?). Install stock pipes for emissions testing, then revert back to LME pipes afterwards. If you keep the LME pipes, I would recommend removing the mini-cat and reverting them to as delivered.

Feel free to ask if you have any questions.

 

[Kcope2006]

SHO - yes I have tried the downpipes with OEM tune...twice. Once it completes the drive cycle the CEL comes on with P0420/0430 codes (ineffective CATS). There's not enough catalyst in the hi-flow cats to trigger the correct reading for the O2 sensors.

Derf - I believe I'm going to look for some used OEM downpipes to install for inspection and then reinstall the LMS pipes. I already have the CAI, thermostat and pipes that the tune was made for so it seems like that's the easiest solution. I have already grabbed screenshots to present to LMS.

 

[SHOdded]

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7260.0.html

 

[mval]

this was the main reason i kept my old dp when i went to the ppe's was our state inspection. they did pass a readiness state test once i ran the goofy procedure. i have not check it since to see if readiness error came back. i almost positive they passed the AZ state as well.

 

[Steps]

Folks need to pay close attention to their states emissions laws. In CO they put our cars on a roller, run them up to 55, and do a sniff test while they do it. Do you think I would chance catted DP's? Nope, because I know it will fail after doing the research.

LMS does warn you about emissions and off-road use only (maybe not strictly in the link to that catted DP, but it is all over their site)! Hell, my tuner came with multiple warnings, JUST FOR THE TUNE! Regardless, it isn't on your shop (LMS or any other) to inform you of your state emissions laws, EPA standards, or anything else. It is up to you to understand these laws and know what you can do to your car/truck/bike, etc.

In CO we have zero emissions on new cars for the first 7 years...so you can have a lot of fun until then. After that it is every other year. If you are willing to swap back to original parts every two years you can run what you want! In my case, I don't want to. I would rather rebuild a motor, or build a new motor, than swap exhaust parts for an emissions test. That said, because I did my research, I know I don't want the DP's.

Just sayin'!

 

[Suddueth13]

Bumping an old thread but just wanted to share a bit of info. In the ST community, the Vibrant j-bend defouler is the go to for catted and catless downpipes. No P0420 triggers with stock tune or tune that leaves the rear O2's turned on. Not sure if anyone has used or had any success on these platforms with that particular style of defouler.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/vpe-11620?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-vibrant-performance&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIisW5w8XZ2QIVELXACh33fQYEEAQYAiABEgI8d_D_BwE