LMS Tune, Transmission Slips & Traction Control

[SHOnUup]

Rich I had a car with 3k miles and true synthetic amsoil...it's arguably the best fluid available....the pressures when set in some of these tunes at over 200 is way over stock and the tranny simply does not like that...I think the stock setting is about 175 but I'd have to look...might not seem like it but that's a huge increase...it doesn't take large adjustments to make a difference in shift firmness when using that scalar in the tune

I hear ya AJ. No arguing your point here. It's just with us LME guys....we have identical settings. So when something isn't working for one of us, but is for others...I start leaning towards personal car maintenance. Not saying people haven't maintained their car properly, just they aren't built exactly alike.

Example:

Guy has shifting problem and LME says it's fine, he goes to Torrie and he adjusts settings to "feel" better for driver. Issue seemed to be gone. Month later PTU explodes.

Rich

 

[Brucelinc]

TSS might jump in here but I know he had his transmission fluid changed and the stutter seemed to be gone for a few days but then returned.  He finally had the shift pressure reduced on the 1-2 shift.

I also had my shift pressure reduced on the 1-2 shift and, at first, I was afraid that it might hurt acceleration since the shift is so much more refined.  After a few 0-60 tests with the Aeroforce gauge, I discovered that performance was not hurt at all. 

I am not saying that dirty or burnt transmission fluid will not contribute to this but high shift pressures seem to be the common denominator.  Why the issue is so inconsistent, though, continues to puzzle me.

 

[ajpturbo]

True and hard to compare really because different software is used for tuning the tables maybe presented completely different and even if they are similar I don't know how well they would correlate...I'm not a software engineer..ie a torrie tune via sct and lms tune via mycal or whatever it is

 

[SHOdded]

In the FSM for the Edge, under Trans specifications, I see this:

Line Pressure Chart 
Gear  Line 
Pressures at Idle
P  372-413 kPa (54-60 psi) 
R  689-724 kPa (100-105 psi) 
N  372-413 kPa (54-60 psi) 
D  579-600 kPa (84-87 psi) 
L  579-600 kPa (84-87 psi) 

Pressure at Wide Open Throttle (WOT) Stall
P  372-413 kPa (54-60 psi) 
R  1,724-2,068 kPa (250-300 psi) 
N  372-413 kPa (54-60 psi) 
D  1,655-1,724 kPa (240-250 psi) 
L  1,655-1,724 kPa (240-250 psi) 

I am sure there are similar tables available in the SHO/Flex/XSPort/MKS FSM's.

 

[ajpturbo]

....I could be wrong but I don't think those are for shifts since it says "stall"...something with torque converter settings...the shift pressure tables are based on torque and ramp up with torque...at part throttle and low commanded toque areas the pressures are well below 50 even so the numbers u show look really high which also makes me think they are for something different that is not the culprit for the 1-2 shudder...but again I could be wrong

 

[SHOdded]

Mind you, these numbers are for the Edge (6F50), not the SHO (6F55), two different transmissions.  Besides I don't have any info on the actual range control capability for each of the shift solenoids, nor the "breaking point" for the actual gears/clutch packs involved.

 

[ZSHO]

I guess the same goes for meth injection,before installing it the car should be in great running condition preferably with lower mileage in order to get the full potential from your vehicle,and of course the the lower stat and new plugs,and fluids.Z

 

[14SHOCAR]

Time out team. LOL

There was a LOT of good information here. However, to better figure out the problem with the community, lets actually figure out what I should test. I'm ok doing new tranny fluid.

Rich -- Do you want me to get some of the from my transmission fluid to see its color? Do you suggest that I change out the fluid and see if I still get that shudder between 1st and 2nd?

Rich + Everyone else -- Remember when I have traction control OFF, I don't have this issue. That makes me lean towards tune + line pressure or slip sensitivity over mechanical.

Also to note, I was running in Sport Mode, not Drive. I hear from some people that I need to avoid Sport Mode with LMS 93 3bar V8

 

[BiGMaC]

Does anyone know how TC affects the tranny, other than locking out 6th gear?

 

[14SHOCAR]

Does anyone know how TC affects the tranny, other than locking out 6th gear?

TC affects the power distribution. Do you mean Sport Mode? The shift points on a "stock car" with Sport Mode are different.

 

[14SHOCAR]

"Engine output is the same 365 hp and 350 lb-ft of torque but acceleration of the Performance Package version benefits from a shorter 3.16:1 final-drive ratio (compared to the SHO's standard 2.77:1 ratio)."

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1205_ford_taurus_sho_performance_package/

 

[BiGMaC]

Does anyone know how TC affects the tranny, other than locking out 6th gear?

TC affects the power distribution. Do you mean Sport Mode? The shift points on a "stock car" with Sport Mode are different.

yea.. meant sport mode... Thanks

 

[14SHOCAR]

The official word from Livernois:
"The traction control is not happy with the newly found power and as it is re learning like you mentioned it will be firmer.  If you drive less aggressive it will eventually tone down over a few days time.  I typically prefer to give them a few days of driving to tone down a bit before boost launching and a lot of WOT driving.  The car needs a fighting chance to learn and for adjusting to the new flash.  Also that slip feeling is your car trying to stop power delivery to the ground because it sees the potential for wheel spin.  I always turn traction control off every time I get in my vehicles by force of habit.  That way when I want to play, its ready to go for it instead of acting like a dog to prevent loss of traction.  I would give it a few days of typical driving and the times when you do plan on driving aggressively, turn of the TC.  Some models like our PP had a TC button vs the models where you have to disable it in the menu.  If your car has a TC button, hold your foot on the brake when running in park and hold the button in for 10-15 seconds.  I know the PP for example will say advance trac off which is the true "OFF" or track mode.  That allows the car to spin the tires as it so desires."

I asked if I should unplug the battery to relearn and drive "nicely".... no word yet.

 

[ajpturbo]

Sounds fishy to me......Couple things here. It takes no longer than 4-5 seconds pushing the TC button and holding the brake to disable the advance trac, not 10-15 seconds lol....You can just reflash and the KAM(keep alive memory) will reset and all the adaptives will be reset, no need to disconnect the battery....If you have an X4 device it has a feature to reset the KAM so it's quick and easy.

I hated waiting for the adaptive stuff after a reflash...to me the adaptives are just there to compensate for a lack of tuning, so if the tables are dialed in better the adaptive is a much quicker if even non existent process. i.e. before I smoothed out my shift pressures some of my part throttle shifts were overly firm. SO I reduced some of the part throttle pressures that ford left strangely high, so now I've all but eliminated the adaptive learning process and it shifts properly immediately following a reflash.

I invite some of you to log "actual throttle angle" during a long WOT pull. I think a lot of you may be surprised to find that some of the perceived missing and traction control intervention may actually be throttle closures due to some of the torque tables not matching commanded and actual torque values and nothing to do with loss of traction and traction control issues.

These cars are tedious to tune and I'm not an expert but I've see a few pro tuners struggle with this to get it right. At times I would see my boost drop abruptly and it can be perceived as a miss or a traction issue because it's happening around a shift but it has more to do with drive by wire and complex torque tables in this platform.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

Sounds fishy to me......Couple things here. It takes no longer than pushing the TC button and holding the brake to disable the advance trac, not 10-15 seconds lol....You can just reflash and the KAM(keep alive memory) will reset and all the adaptives will be reset, no need to disconnect the battery....If you have an X4 device it has a feature to reset the KAM so it's quick and easy.

I hated waiting for the adaptive stuff after a reflash...to me the adaptives are just there to compensate for a lack of tuning, so if the tables are dialed in better the adaptive is a much quicker if even non existent process. i.e. before I smoothed out my shift pressures some of my part throttle shifts were overly firm. SO I reduced some of the part throttle pressures that ford left strangely high, so now I've all but eliminated the adaptive learning process and it shifts properly immediately following a reflash.

I invite some of you to log "actual throttle angle" during a long WOT pull. I think a lot of you may be surprised to find that some of the perceived missing and traction control intervention may actually be throttle closures due to some of the torque tables not matching commanded and actual torque values and nothing to do with loss of traction and traction control issues.

These cars are tedious to tune and I'm not an expert but I've see a few pro tuners struggle with this to get it right. At times I would see my boost drop abruptly and it can be perceived as a miss or a traction issue because it's happening around a shift but it has more to do with drive by wire and complex torque tables in this platform.

On the 2015, holding the brake and tapping the button increases the thresholds and holding for 5 seconds disables completely.

Your post sounds spot on to my experiences with Torrie during the datalog and retune cycle.

The time the car took to "seem sorted" decreased to almost nothing towards the end.

Great insight, thanks!

 

[markssho]

I too experienced this stutter/shudder/slip feeling for the first time ever, this morning. It almost felt like power was being transferred under heavy load to the rear. 

Reminded me of the same feeling I would get sometimes in my AWD Subaru XT6 back in the early 90's when it would lose grip.

I was not at WOT, but near. I just put the tune back on a little over a week ago, so, I'm attributing it to the learning process.
I was tuned from last Oct to March and had nothing like this before. No worries here....

 

[SHOnUup]

Yeah I'm betting Livernois is having a real tough time figuring out the ecoboost....Really

But I guess it'd be to hard to give anyone other than your choice any respect....that's being a "my" car guy, not a car guy.

Isn't traction control all about torque to the wheels?

Thus, when it's enabled and you exceed torque limit, it adjusts for you.

Makes complete sense with it not being present when disabled.

If you plan on driving aggressively you should always have traction control off if tuned. A quick lane change and mash of the skinny pedal at same time can put you in a bad situation if needing the speed.

Rich

 

[ajpturbo]

Yeah I'm betting Livernois is having a real tough time figuring out the ecoboost....Really

But I guess it'd be to hard to give anyone other than your choice any respect....that's being a "my" car guy, not a car guy.

Isn't traction control all about torque to the wheels?

Thus, when it's enabled and you exceed torque limit, it adjusts for you.

Makes complete sense with it not being present when disabled.

If you plan on driving aggressively you should always have traction control off if tuned. A quick lane change and mash of the skinny pedal at same time can put you in a bad situation if needing the speed.

Rich

I'm not sure what you mean and if you are being sarcastic....But there are many forms of torque control in these cars....The amount and times that torque control can be applied may have nothing to do with a wheel spinning or a temporary loss of traction....The traction control intervention is from wheel speed sensors. Torque control, in these cars comes when something isn't happy with the tables in the tune or something exceeded a threshold or it's intentional and is a form of protection.


It's way above me and I don't understand how the car measures actual and delivered torque. Complex algorithms and some values are "inferred" based on other values but the new mustangs and most drive by wire cars are using this form of tuning now

i.e you can set the car up so that you have traction control off but still have all kinds of torque reductions and the throttle closes even though there was no wheel slip detected...There are torque reductions for the PTU, Trans, limits per gear, input shaft torque limits, oil temp and more

 

[BiGMaC]

As figured out as anyone.... Since the LME shop owns 3 SHOs among a stable of EBs.

As far as this topic ... I can't turn off the TC since I'm nonPP, my car doesn't exhibit the behavior described.... Not even close spinning at start, 1-2, and 2-3...

Corrupt tune? Individuality of the OPs car?  Dunno... Won't be simple until it's identified.  As FoMoCo says... Issues develop for both the reputable tuners with this platform.

 

[14SHOCAR]

So there is a lot of information about torque curves here. I think most people here missed the fact that the newer SHOs have all redone dynamic torque vectoring. The torque tables are complex due to inputs from the speed, wheel angle, slip, and brake... Its not just simple torque management anymore.

Also in my 2014, I can't figure out how to turn off the ESC. In the screen menu --> I go to Driver Assist --> Traction Control --> and uncheck it. I still get assist in slides but its not as sensitive as with the Traction Control on. I am not entirely sure there is a way to fully disable traction control on this car. Any tips would be wonderful.

With all that being stated, I'm giving my car some time to adjust. I'll let you know how things go given a few more weeks.