Simple question....unleashed or livernois for basic 93 tune

[4DRHTRD]

Still not opinion I believe you should make from a supporting vendor. LMS has explain why they don't data log. Do we even know what SCT can log? Cause nobody else with other devices can monitor knock pids. If you truly believe LMS has inferior product why would you have them as vender on the forum?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, all SCT devices can data log
I didn't say they were inferior, I'm saying to data log everyone's tune for safety.
Here's a A to B comparison though, make your own decisions.

Company A:
Tuner is $399 with 3 custom tunes
Custom tunes with datalog feedback so it's built for your vehicle
Tuner has datalogging and software built in, nothing else to buy
Tuner is wifi and has a display to show PID's you can select
Available almost 24/7 for email updates of your tune
3 bar tune support
Any meth kit support
If you want to push the boundaries with E85, E85 mixing etc they will support it.
If you return to stock you can resell your tuner to someone else, they just need to buy a new custom tune.


Company B
Tuner is $599
Tune is based off of the companies tests on a dyno and built to their climate and gas quality, no data logs will be accepted for tune updates and no E85 or E content mixing support.
Tuner has no datalogging capabilities and no way to show PIDS.
Support it 8-5 M-F with turnaround times around 72 hours (just from what I've seen reported, I'm sure sometimes it's faster during business hours)
If you return to stock you can resell your tuner to someone else, they just need to buy a new custom tune.




Now if and hopefully when hptuners or Cobb comes out the game will be completely changed. It will no longer be what it is today, just like what happens every time Cobb enters the game for tuning. The new Cobb tuner for the Fusion just makes it so simple to tune. It gives feedback on what limiter you're hitting and their support is super knowledgeable and will help you tune your vehicle.
I am SO looking forward to either company coming in, as someone who's spent time with the SCT interface these things will make a major difference in what we can do!

 

[black99lightning]

I would agree.  In the end, I don't think you could go wrong with either. 

 

[bigmoneycloser]

I will be first customer to buy hot pipes for the Xsport.. No question asked..lol
I picture mine, powder coated graphite grey like my catch can with Blue rubber connectors..hint hint
They are bad ass!!!!


This site is great and the members are great. You have created a unique environment here..
I'm sure all your hard work and struggle will pay off and good future and health will come your way..
Stay positive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[panther427]

Honestly they are great companys.. I made my choice after talking with both company's.. After that i went with who i felt more comfortable with.

 

[2010SHOtime]

When I joined this site quickly I was sold on LMS but the great thing about this site is the plethora of information posted here. I waited before I ordered my tune and kept reading and was noticing posts by members here when they had a bad tune file from LMS and certain tunes that made cars run weird and needed new tune files. I'm sure there have been posts like that about Torrie but I hadn't come across them. I also liked the immediate response from Torrie regarding the tunes and literally waited 15 minutes from giving Torrie my strategy code to getting my tunes. I'm an extremely impatient person and that was important to me. I will never bash LMS because I think they have great products and do an amazing job with our cars.
I agree with Mike and believe every car is different and a one size doesn't fit all.

 

[BiGMaC]

Still not opinion I believe you should make from a supporting vendor. LMS has explain why they don't data log. Do we even know what SCT can log? Cause nobody else with other devices can monitor knock pids. If you truly believe LMS has inferior product why would you have them as vender on the forum?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, all SCT devices can data log
I didn't say they were inferior, I'm saying to data log everyone's tune for safety.
Here's a A to B comparison though, make your own decisions.

Company A:
Tuner is $399 with 3 custom tunes
Custom tunes with datalog feedback so it's built for your vehicle
Tuner has datalogging and software built in, nothing else to buy
Tuner is wifi and has a display to show PID's you can select
Available almost 24/7 for email updates of your tune
3 bar tune support
Any meth kit support
If you want to push the boundaries with E85, E85 mixing etc they will support it.
If you return to stock you can resell your tuner to someone else, they just need to buy a new custom tune.


Company B
Tuner is $599
Tune is based off of the companies tests on a dyno and built to their climate and gas quality, no data logs will be accepted for tune updates and no E85 or E content mixing support.
Tuner has no datalogging capabilities and no way to show PIDS.
Support it 8-5 M-F with turnaround times around 72 hours (just from what I've seen reported, I'm sure sometimes it's faster during business hours)
If you return to stock you can resell your tuner to someone else, they just need to buy a new custom tune.




Now if and hopefully when hptuners or Cobb comes out the game will be completely changed. It will no longer be what it is today, just like what happens every time Cobb enters the game for tuning. The new Cobb tuner for the Fusion just makes it so simple to tune. It gives feedback on what limiter you're hitting and their support is super knowledgeable and will help you tune your vehicle.
I am SO looking forward to either company coming in, as someone who's spent time with the SCT interface these things will make a major difference in what we can do!

No Dis to anyone.  If I didn't type it here don't interpret please.  I consider Mike a friend.
I have great respect for 4DR, Unleashed, and LMS. 

Mike did lay this part out spot on IMHO:... If you're up for fuel experiments and pushing the boundaries... Unleashed is likely the best choice I think... and with it goes time spent doing appropriate monitoring, if you want a quick car with improved performance and mostly just want to drive it... LMS may be the best for you... for you guys in the middle like me.... well I experiment to get the best of both worlds. 

Not too bad a comparison IMHO...... a couple of things I must post just because of my experience first hand.  I am going to finally tune tomorrow. (who designed the spark plug wells and location in the SHO?)  I have talked to Mike about the tune in person this week because I respect his opinion.... if you read the forum you know what we're planning.

As far as communication and support.... at least 4 folks including Dan, Andy, Brandon, and Anthony of LMS responded to me directly via text, email and voice call on weekends, evenings, and holidays during the last 3 months (and multiple times,..before I was a customer)... including their personal phones for months both before as well as since I purchased tuning to go on my used MyCal. So support is much better than implied.

As far as gas, and I'll admit it's not as bad as AZ is, but they do use 91 octane to tune for 91 octane at LMS... I asked Dan myself.  Climate is different.. same as DA changes at the strip... no doubt.... LMS had cw this winter and Unleashed must have had to rewrite for the same reasons this winter.

LMS does support the 3BAR MAP, DPs, and CAI... I set it up with Anthony on the phone at 5:15 MST  (8;15 EST) and then DL my tune.  After I can check it out (and hopefully dyno) I'll add the 3BAR component so I know what it does for me.... or doesn't.

Other than these points I'd echo everything you said... Not to debate, just to inform.  I also agree that a third player with expertise will change the game and make all of it better.




 

 

[Josephm]

My issue when this topic comes up, comes straight from this post (^^^).

The fact that you say LMS is safer, is not a fact. Think about it, How would a tune, that is a off the shelf, one for all, be SAFER, than one where the individual records his OWN perimeters and sends it off to a tuner. Its just not possible.

The word 'Safe' is IRRELEVANT when it comes to Livernois. I know of only two failures from tuned vehicles, and one CAME from livernois after they did the upgraded turbo (Search for that if you really want filled in; That was my deciding factor on picking a tuner.) and the other was a admitted user error (Meth).

If anything 4DR should of blown his vehicle up numerous times running lean when he was self tuning. This vehicle is very adaptive and impressive needless to say.

 

[goblues38]

Thanks for everyone's responses. I have been around car forums enough and should have known my topic would be a little heated. Truss me. I truly did not intend to stir the pot.

I was just not getting the answers I needed by going back through old posts. Now I have what I need.

I truly see both sides of the coin and can see negatives and appositives for both solutions.

That's being said.  I am in IT and hooking up to the obdII port to do some logging is a no brainer.  I am going to shoot each company a couple questions for my usage. Based on the responses I will finalize my choice.

Thanks again all. And thanks for giving me what I need without letting the thread go to hell.

Scott

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Still not opinion I believe you should make from a supporting vendor. LMS has explain why they don't data log. Do we even know what SCT can log? Cause nobody else with other devices can monitor knock pids. If you truly believe LMS has inferior product why would you have them as vender on the forum?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, all SCT devices can data log
I didn't say they were inferior, I'm saying to data log everyone's tune for safety.
Here's a A to B comparison though, make your own decisions.

Company A:
Tuner is $399 with 3 custom tunes
Custom tunes with datalog feedback so it's built for your vehicle
Tuner has datalogging and software built in, nothing else to buy
Tuner is wifi and has a display to show PID's you can select
Available almost 24/7 for email updates of your tune
3 bar tune support
Any meth kit support
If you want to push the boundaries with E85, E85 mixing etc they will support it.
If you return to stock you can resell your tuner to someone else, they just need to buy a new custom tune.


Company B
Tuner is $599
Tune is based off of the companies tests on a dyno and built to their climate and gas quality, no data logs will be accepted for tune updates and no E85 or E content mixing support.
Tuner has no datalogging capabilities and no way to show PIDS.
Support it 8-5 M-F with turnaround times around 72 hours (just from what I've seen reported, I'm sure sometimes it's faster during business hours)
If you return to stock you can resell your tuner to someone else, they just need to buy a new custom tune.




Now if and hopefully when hptuners or Cobb comes out the game will be completely changed. It will no longer be what it is today, just like what happens every time Cobb enters the game for tuning. The new Cobb tuner for the Fusion just makes it so simple to tune. It gives feedback on what limiter you're hitting and their support is super knowledgeable and will help you tune your vehicle.
I am SO looking forward to either company coming in, as someone who's spent time with the SCT interface these things will make a major difference in what we can do!

Unfortunately we are a little disappointed that we are having to come in and defend ourselves from the owner of a board we just agreed to sponsor.

There are many incorrect statements in your post, and many other posts that you have made. It is unfortunate, but we are here for the community.

As for our tuner, saying it is a "one size fits all" couldn't be further from the truth. Our tunes are custom, and our tuner comes with unlimited custom tuning for as long as you own the car and device.

We are fine with datalogging, but since everyone is datalogging the wrong parameters, it is useless and causes way more harm than good. You can't tune if you aren't looking at good data.

More incorrect information listed would be our hours of operation and our turn around time. While some tunes may take some time, we have had penty that were well under an hour. Look at what time it is right now, we were sending tunes out. No tuner on the planet can guarantee every tune will be delivered within x minutes.

Another piece of incorrect info is that our tunes are only based on our dyno here. We travel around the country to tune, in all types of environments, with all types of fuel. We have cars sent to us with fuel from different zones as well to have that advantage too.

One more data point is that while others out there are reliant on software companies to release support, fix corrupted code, map out parameters, we do that in house so we can control our own code. We played the game of being reliant on third party companies and were tired of waiting months, or years for support, or to fix incorrect mapping or missing tables.

 

[crash712us]

My issue when this topic comes up, comes straight from this post (^^^).

The fact that you say LMS is safer, is not a fact. Think about it, How would a tune, that is a off the shelf, one for all, be SAFER, than one where the individual records his OWN perimeters and sends it off to a tuner. Its just not possible.

The word 'Safe' is IRRELEVANT when it comes to Livernois. I know of only two failures from tuned vehicles, and one CAME from livernois after they did the upgraded turbo (Search for that if you really want filled in; That was my deciding factor on picking a tuner.) and the other was a admitted user error (Meth).

If anything 4DR should of blown his vehicle up numerous times running lean when he was self tuning. This vehicle is very adaptive and impressive needless to say.

What 2 failures? I can almost guarantee you don't have your facts straight. But if you want to spread rumors, I have them and there not pretty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[4DRHTRD]

Why do you keep saying that the sensors are bad? How are they bad and what proof do you have to show your sensors vs the vehicle sensors and the differences?
You're not having to defend yourself I just put up the information that I have seen. LMS keeps referencing on different boards that the sensors don't work and you're getting bad data. I want proof of such statements, not just statements to that effect.
Are you saying the lambda values from the stock wideband O2 are not accurate? If so can you show a comparison between an NGK wideband in comparison to the stock wideband?
I want data, not statements without data, that's not bashing that's asking for information. When I post up things I take videos, dynos etc to back my statements. Real world testing with videos of said testing with values taken from the ECU which you say aren't correct.
Please please enlighten me as I'm very confused how the sensors don't work on our vehicles and provide bad data, wouldn't that cause the factory ECU safety systems to not work correctly?

If my statement about company B are incorrect update them, I only know what I read on the forums from your customers in what I'm seeing about the tuner/response times etc.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

My issue when this topic comes up, comes straight from this post (^^^).

The fact that you say LMS is safer, is not a fact. Think about it, How would a tune, that is a off the shelf, one for all, be SAFER, than one where the individual records his OWN perimeters and sends it off to a tuner. Its just not possible.

The word 'Safe' is IRRELEVANT when it comes to Livernois. I know of only two failures from tuned vehicles, and one CAME from livernois after they did the upgraded turbo (Search for that if you really want filled in; That was my deciding factor on picking a tuner.) and the other was a admitted user error (Meth).

If anything 4DR should of blown his vehicle up numerous times running lean when he was self tuning. This vehicle is very adaptive and impressive needless to say.

What 2 failures? I can almost guarantee you don't have your facts straight. But if you want to spread rumors, I have them and there not pretty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am wondering this one as well, we have never had a car we installed turbos on have a failure. Maybe he's confused with some other shop? We had one with a probelm with the turbo seals, but it's alive and well. Never had an issue with any part of the driveline. Just some smoke which happens all the time on these cars, upgraded turbos or not.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Why do you keep saying that the sensors are bad? How are they bad and what proof do you have to show your sensors vs the vehicle sensors and the differences?
You're not having to defend yourself I just put up the information that I have seen. LMS keeps referencing on different boards that the sensors don't work and you're getting bad data. I want proof of such statements, not just statements to that effect.
Are you saying the lambda values from the stock wideband O2 are not accurate? If so can you show a comparison between an NGK wideband in comparison to the stock wideband?
I want data, not statements without data, that's not bashing that's asking for information. When I post up things I take videos, dynos etc to back my statements. Real world testing with videos of said testing with values taken from the ECU which you say aren't correct.
Please please enlighten me as I'm very confused how the sensors don't work on our vehicles and provide bad data, wouldn't that cause the factory ECU safety systems to not work correctly?

If my statement about company B are incorrect update them, I only know what I read on the forums from your customers in what I'm seeing about the tuner/response times etc.

No one said the sensors are bad. What we have said, keep saying, and will continue to keep saying is that the dataloggers people are using are not accurate. Plain and simple. If someone else other than us knew, really knew how these ecm's worked then they would know how incorrect these dataloggers are. Every one of them. The sensors aren't the problem, the software and hardware being used to read them is.

 

[Josephm]

Wasn't there the upgrade turbos that were installed and tuned by livernois that failed and the car sat for months?

ecoboost bob came out and said He incorrectly mixed the meth and he did not update his tune because he figured it wouldn't change much.

No rumors, I read constantly, I read the thread about the livernois car before I bought my EB.

 

[Josephm]

My issue when this topic comes up, comes straight from this post (^^^).

The fact that you say LMS is safer, is not a fact. Think about it, How would a tune, that is a off the shelf, one for all, be SAFER, than one where the individual records his OWN perimeters and sends it off to a tuner. Its just not possible.

The word 'Safe' is IRRELEVANT when it comes to Livernois. I know of only two failures from tuned vehicles, and one CAME from livernois after they did the upgraded turbo (Search for that if you really want filled in; That was my deciding factor on picking a tuner.) and the other was a admitted user error (Meth).

If anything 4DR should of blown his vehicle up numerous times running lean when he was self tuning. This vehicle is very adaptive and impressive needless to say.

What 2 failures? I can almost guarantee you don't have your facts straight. But if you want to spread rumors, I have them and there not pretty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am wondering this one as well, we have never had a car we installed turbos on have a failure. Maybe he's confused with some other shop? We had one with a probelm with the turbo seals, but it's alive and well. Never had an issue with any part of the driveline. Just some smoke which happens all the time on these cars, upgraded turbos or not.

How long did it take to fix this issue? I remember the car being down for a significant amount of time

My point is because its said to be 'safe' and people regurgitate it's 'safe' doesn't make it any less safe than any other.

 

[crash712us]

Wasn't there the upgrade turbos that were installed and tuned by livernois that failed and the car sat for months?

ecoboost bob came out and said He incorrectly mixed the meth and he did not update his tune because he figured it wouldn't change much.

No rumors, I read constantly, I read the thread about the livernois car before I bought my EB.

Eco brick bob was Torrie tuned. And I believe LMS answered the turbo issue. Which I am sure there plenty more information on. But that for those two parties to divulge.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Josephm]

It wasn't a tune issue though. He(bob)came out and said he added more meth than water than he was tuned for.

So when it's said xxx is the safest, that's a false statement. Or subjective to what you call safe.

 

[crash712us]

Eco brick bob used denatured alcohol instead of methanol. And that was the root of his failure. And no one blamed Torrie, but you just blame LMS for this. Maybe your just new, but it's so widely known that bob was torrie tuned I don't see how this could be confused.
And that's what really irks me, that there several of are early pioneers that had Torrie tunes that switch to LMS and not one them bash Torrie. Yet we have people here that haven't dealt with LMS and yet feel the need to bash them, or spread false information.
Why can't we afford LMS the same courtesy?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[pejohnson]

I think debate and opinions are good. That's what this forum is all about. That's why so many of us log in everyday to read and gain knowledge. I think enough as been said or better yet too much has been said. Too much negative energy on this thread!  Let's get back to learning and talking about our vehicles.  I will not be reading this thread anymore. It's become too heated and personal IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[roushed]

I second that

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk