Torque Knock PID - may have some progress...

[FoMoCoSHO]

So has anybody set up timing advance next to the knock gauge?

Cause I can clearly see timing being removed when the knock gauge moves into the negative and added back as it moves back to zero.

Have we had it backwards the whole time or am I missing something?

 

[scap99]

So has anybody set up timing advance next to the knock gauge?

Cause I can clearly see timing being removed when the knock gauge moves into the negative and added back as it moves back to zero.

Have we had it backwards the whole time or am I missing something?

It's opposite for me on the truck and with my SCT tunes.

Negative knock = timing added
Positive knock = timing pulled

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

It's the same for me tuned or untuned.

 

[ShoBoat]

So has anybody set up timing advance next to the knock gauge?

Cause I can clearly see timing being removed when the knock gauge moves into the negative and added back as it moves back to zero.

Have we had it backwards the whole time or am I missing something?

I'll have a look but I really can see how that is? It's possible that the tune (stock or not) be subtracting timing during the condition and adding it back in for -KR simultaneously. It just appears what you have described. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

 

[ecoboostsho]

So has anybody set up timing advance next to the knock gauge?

Cause I can clearly see timing being removed when the knock gauge moves into the negative and added back as it moves back to zero.

Have we had it backwards the whole time or am I missing something?

I watched this today and a "Negative KR" reading results in timing being added...which is what I expected.  At least on mine...

As I'm sure you know the car takes in to account a lot of variables to determine what timing it is going to run (MAP, RPM, IAT, Octane rating, Knock, etc...) and we are just watching one variable in that equation so I suppose something else could be subtracting timing on your car?

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

I'm gonna try and grab a video to post up.

 

[SHOnUup]

So has anybody set up timing advance next to the knock gauge?

Cause I can clearly see timing being removed when the knock gauge moves into the negative and added back as it moves back to zero.

Have we had it backwards the whole time or am I missing something?

Yes, I am also seeing my timing adv. go from a 45-50 at no throttle to mid 30's - mid 20 ' s under light throttle and a drop to around 10 at wot.

 

[Larrylu]

But what is called for, and is what you are seeing being affected by the KR reading

 

[SHOnUup]

As I get negative knock reading timing adv drops.

 

[wasinger3000]

I've been watching my timing vs knock for several days now. I have screen shots of torque. I took one after every drive I made. So I have a record of everything as my fuel mixes change. I see -5.0 nock in 5th or 6th going up steep hills.

 

[ecoboostsho]

So has anybody set up timing advance next to the knock gauge?

Cause I can clearly see timing being removed when the knock gauge moves into the negative and added back as it moves back to zero.

Have we had it backwards the whole time or am I missing something?

Yes, I am also seeing my timing adv. go from a 45-50 at no throttle to mid 30's - mid 20 ' s under light throttle and a drop to around 10 at wot.

This is normal behavior and how timing works in general.  You will definitely get a ton of timing advance under light throttle and less under WOT (although 10 seems low...I would expect you'd see between 17-20 degrees at WOT - how much boost are you running?) 

If you are going to measure timing advance due to knock you need to hold the throttle steady and be on a steady "grade" etc...the goal is not have any engine load variations so the timing number settles to something "desired"...then watch the knock gauge - when it starts to do its -0.25, -0.5, -1,... thing watch your timing advance gauge (again without moving the throttle!) and you should see timing increase.  It does on my car every time.  If the throttle position changes or the grade changes etc...what you are seeing is being caused by other variables.

 

[SHOnUup]

Today I noticed a spike of 15.2 for boost. While watching the timing adv wasn't keeping track of boost (will do next time). I do notice it jump up and down a bit when at even throttle. Lowest I saw timing adv go was 12 at wot with 0 "kr"

 

[ecoboostsho]

I just don't think you guys are going to see it in action during anything other than a light throttle run.  At WOT (or any boost #) there are a number of things that can affect timing so you'd have no way to know what is contributing to the number changing.  Another thing to note is that the ECU will reduce timing at the shifts to save the tranny and preserve shift quality (aka Torque Management).  There are a LOT of variables that go in to determining timing (mean best torque tables, octane tables, etc...) and multiple adders and subtracters (IAT, Coolant Temp, Knock, ...).

I would at least try my experiment at light throttle where the car starts showing incremental negative KR and watch what the timing is doing during that.  That should at least minimize the number of variables.

 

[ecoboostsho]

Today I noticed a spike of 15.2 for boost. While watching the timing adv wasn't keeping track of boost (will do next time). I do notice it jump up and down a bit when at even throttle. Lowest I saw timing adv go was 12 at wot with 0 "kr"

Was that 12 during a shift?

 

[SHOnUup]

Could have been...first time really paying attention to it...will add this variable to the checklist for next run

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

So has anybody set up timing advance next to the knock gauge?

Cause I can clearly see timing being removed when the knock gauge moves into the negative and added back as it moves back to zero.

Have we had it backwards the whole time or am I missing something?

Yes, I am also seeing my timing adv. go from a 45-50 at no throttle to mid 30's - mid 20 ' s under light throttle and a drop to around 10 at wot.

This is normal behavior and how timing works in general.  You will definitely get a ton of timing advance under light throttle and less under WOT (although 10 seems low...I would expect you'd see between 17-20 degrees at WOT - how much boost are you running?) 

If you are going to measure timing advance due to knock you need to hold the throttle steady and be on a steady "grade" etc...the goal is not have any engine load variations so the timing number settles to something "desired"...then watch the knock gauge - when it starts to do its -0.25, -0.5, -1,... thing watch your timing advance gauge (again without moving the throttle!) and you should see timing increase.  It does on my car every time.  If the throttle position changes or the grade changes etc...what you are seeing is being caused by other variables.

My cars behavior is the exact opposite. Any kind of acceleration with cruise on 72 causes negative knock and timing retard. As the number climbs back to zero, timing is added every time. If I add accel, the negative number decreases and timing Is pulled even more.

So for these specific driving conditions, are you guys seeing the same thing?

 

[ecoboostsho]

Weird. Although If you or the cruise control adds pedal the timing will go down. It is supposed to...it has nothing to do with the knock gauge it is just moving to a different part of the timing table. If you are saying you are keeping the throttle steady with very little rpm change and as the kr gauge decrements then it is subtracting timing then that is indeed opposite and I have no idea why it is different.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

 

[Larrylu]

Weird. Although If you or the cruise control adds pedal the timing will go down. It is supposed to...it has nothing to do with the knock gauge it is just moving to a different part of the timing table. If you are saying you are keeping the throttle steady with very little rpm change and as the kr gauge decrements then it is subtracting timing then that is indeed opposite and I have no idea why it is different.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

Mine pretty much reads like yours

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

Weird. Although If you or the cruise control adds pedal the timing will go down. It is supposed to...it has nothing to do with the knock gauge it is just moving to a different part of the timing table. If you are saying you are keeping the throttle steady with very little rpm change and as the kr gauge decrements then it is subtracting timing then that is indeed opposite and I have no idea why it is different.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

The question is....is it pulling less timing than it would otherwise

It's the not knowing that makes me nervous. High gear plus boost was deadly for a bunch of Mazda 2.3 turbos hence my concern.

 

[SHOdded]

What ethanol blend % are you running now, FoMoCo?  Have you tried going back to E10/pump gas no blend?  Maybe a fuel system drier, as water may have built up over time.