Turbo 'flutter' during low rpm / high gear acceleration...

[FoMoCoSHO]

Max negative KR all the way up.....(Blend torture test)

The 2013 behaved the exact same way....stock or tuned.

Hoping the dreaded "megaknock" doesn't pay a visit.

Can you elaborate on this a bit?  Max negative KR? Megaknock? 

Seems like it just may be a glitch in the matrix...

Then I need the red pill.

Well, my car is happy during that scenario so I get max negative KR or in other words it is advancing timing under those conditions.

But.....there is a phenomenon called megaknock that only seems to happen on DI cars.....the Mazda Speed community is all too familiar...this megaknock is very fast and extremely destructive. Ford has implemented strategies to combat this so either they are being cautious or they have attributed some engine failures to this. It typically happens in low rpm high boost conditions.

 

[pfbz]

Again... Thanks for the great replies... Folks here seem to be way more informed on this type of issue than the truck-specific forums.

How to reset your KAM...

Can anyone verify that a fresh SCT 'return to stock and load custom tune' resets the KAM? If not, I need to modify my test procedure.

...what is your KR reading?

My knock reading looked extremely screwy... No positive knock and massive negative knock, but still way retarded timing. I'll post another screen capture.

.I am also leaning toward the truck is trying to protect its self.

Sure seems like it, but it doesn't seem like it should have to... Why TF can't it just drop a gear without me putting my foot into it??  It would make much more sense then chopping boost and timing. Something like this: 
IF (bad **** is detected) AND (rpm's are really low) AND (current gear is 4,5,6) THEN (downshift quickly and resample)

I am also assuming that the truck is fine at WOT from a stand still? Is it ok when you stand on it at say 55mph?

Yup, works great tuned and stock in both of those scenarios...

also...

I was curious to see your modification list.

Pretty much stock mechanically.. Slightly oversize tires (285/70-17, 32.08" diameter), AEM dry-flow air filter, boost gauge.

 

[ZSHO]

I apologize for so many questions,just trying to help you out,but when did you install the boost gauge?did you have these issues even before that. Z

 

[pfbz]

I apologize for so many questions,just trying to help you out,but when did you install the boost gauge?did you have these issues even before that. Z

I had the same thought. Even though the boost gauge has been on the truck for years, I did take it offline (removed the T, went back to 100% factory vacuum plumbing) with no change in behavior.

Here is a screen capture with the knock and advance readings.  Things start to look very screwy here to me, so much so that I wondered if I was getting correct data.

I'm no expert at reading these, but it looks to me like the timing is way retarded, and the kr is way negative which should be advancing the timing, but also super spikey.

I also have some questions on how dealer or factory strategy codes relate to custom tunes, but I'll start that on a new thread to not get things too off course here.

 

[ShoBoat]

Wow ok, -63 and 61? That looks really weird indeed. -4 and 7 should be the max. At least it is on my SHO. . There should also be a curve to it adding timing. I


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[pfbz]

Wow ok, -63 and 61? That looks really weird indeed. -4 and 7 should be the max.

Yup. Looks like screwy knock data for sure.  I'll try and get another dataset with throttle position and hopefully accurate knock and advance data as well.  I used this dataset originally as the boost/wastegate data lines showed exactly what I was feeling and seeing on the boost gauge.

Do you guys have a favorite parameter set for on-device SCT ecoboost data captures?  It seems like many of the parameters are redundant or have bad data...

 

[ajpturbo]

I think you need a good custom tune or another custom tune. Something is wrong with that log lol....I'll PM you and send you my email or maybe I can find your email and send you the config file that I log with. You should down load livelink Gen 2 if you haven't already. You may need that to use the config file I send you.


I could be wrong but the PID I log for knock says "knock sensor" not just knock like your pic shows. Sometimes there is  a PID related to knock that show a level of knock percentage or knock level. And I wonder if that's what yours is showing because I highly doubt you are pulling or adding 60 degrees. Or it could be knock ignition limit. At coasting a part throttle you very well could be at 60 of ignition advance so it's making me wonder.

 

[ajpturbo]

20 psi is well within range/duty cycle for an F150EB turbo, just a question of right time, right place.

You think so? Surely you are not talking about a stock tune? I don't know that trucks all that well. I figured they were similar turbos if not the same but maybe the trucks were cammed different along with a different intake manifold and maybe ran a few more pounds of boost to get the 420 torque rating at the crank.

He was up at around 23-24 psi  based on his first log pic. that's pretty aggressive for just a tune

 

[SHOnUup]

Throw some corn at it

Rich

 

[SHOdded]

F150s are not using the same turbos as the SHO.  Their turbos are larger, and tuners (yes, reputable ones) regularly put them into the 20+ range. "K03 turbochargers with 51mm OD FMW compressor wheels" as quoted from Full Race's page.  You can see their writeup here:
http://www.full-race.com/articles/what-is-ecoboost.html
http://www.borgwarner.com/en/News/PressReleases/BWNews/01%2005%2012%20BorgWarner%20Turbocharging%20Technologies%20Help%20Ford%20Ecoboost%20Engines.pdf

 

[wasinger3000]

I am almost certain a tuner can make you a custom tune that will allow for an earlier downshift. Adjusting the throttle angle vs the peddle angle would help as well. It would take a lot of communication with the person making the tune but I think you could get a nice tune tailored to your needs and be happy with it.

If there is nothing mechanically wrong with the truck as of now. I know my 13 did the same thing yours is when I was in Colorado. I'll find out what the 15 does there this weekend.

 

[ajpturbo]

Ok...yeah looking at atp site I see the stock sho turbo has a 49mm compressor wheel....different but not vastly different

It would seem strange for ford to use completely different turbos on an engine with the same displacement and compression and configuration

 

[ZSHO]

I believe the F-150 has a 51mm OD . Heres a very cool article to enjoy for all of us. Z    http://www.full-race.com/articles/inside-the-ecoboost-f-150.html

 

[ajpturbo]

I believe the F-150 has a 51mm OD . Z

Correct...but that's not that big of a difference...but there is more to it than that I know..I just changed turbos on my civic went from a 61mm comp wheel to a 58mm...slightly noticeable

 

[14SHOCAR]

Back to the OP guys -- I still vote boost leak. Are you getting an overboost condition? I explain it pretty well here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhBu5XtafU

There is a vacuum line that falls off on the ecoboost engines, and can be causing this flutter. Does it sound similar to what I have in here?

Do you hear the wastegate opening and staying open? Listen closely when you accelerate to hear the mechanics of the waste gates.

 

[wasinger3000]

I believe the F-150 has a 51mm OD . Z

Correct...but that's not that big of a difference...but there is more to it than that I know..I just changed turbos on my civic went from a 61mm comp wheel to a 58mm...slightly noticeable

The f150 3.5 is quite different than the sho 3.5. They used forged internals, different cams/heads, fuel injectors (I think) and HPFP.

 

[ajpturbo]

Wouldn't say QUITE a bit different.....May have some different components  but it's a 3.5 ecoboost.....Way more similarities than not...More accurate to say for all intents and purposes that the engine is the same than to say they are vastly or quite a bit different....Not like one is boosted and one is not or that the one has different bore and stroke or compression.

 

[wasinger3000]

Wouldn't say QUITE a bit different.....May have some different components  but it's a 3.5 ecoboost.....Way more similarities than not...More accurate to say for all intents and purposes that the engine is the same than to say they are vastly or quite a bit different....Not like one is boosted and one is not or that the one has different bore and stroke or compression.

OR... you are looking at it in to large of a scope. It's like saying a green banana and a yellow banana are the same inside when in fact they are not. :-X

 

[BiGMaC]

Interesting that the F150 gets forged piston rods.... Thought they were all just cast from those metal beads ford uses.

 

[r1crusher]

The blocks are physically different castings to boot (obviously).  But I would agree with wasinger's that they are "different".  There's more major component differences than shared...i.e. pistons, rods, heads, cams, etc.  Dimensionally some of those components might be identical but their physical make up are not the same.

The F150's 3.5 is designed to handle more torque and loads, hence the major forged component.  The SHO's 3.5 is was not designed the same and I personally would have loved to seen those same forged internals in the SHO 3.5.

Not knocking anyone or their opinions here, just my observations.

So...back on the topic again...   I still believe the engine is behaving "normally" and there is possibly some minor hole in the tuning (i.e. fuel/timing/etc. tables) where under these unique circumstances it's seen.