Unleashed tuning and Livernois tuning comparison on my SHO

[Livernois Motorsports]

Oh, very cool! If there is anything that we can do my personal contact info is
<----------Right here!

 

[4DRHTRD]

It's never the ET to compare, it's always the MPH, and with them being within .1 of each other I'd say they're identical.
ET has nothing to do with HP and all to do with sticking.
As an example - same car, same tune nothing changed but tires (mine)
10.6@133 with a 1.65 60' - 19x10 with 305/35R19 MT DR
10.3@133 with a 1.50 60' - 17x11 with 325/45R17 M&H DR
I even ran an 11.0@132 lifting
If you want to quantify power the MPH is the key, there's almost no difference in the two cars tunes.


Concerning the adaptive learning - if both have been tuned right before the pass then they're both in the same learning scenario on the ECU - another thing to remove from the equation.

 

[ElvenSho]

Taking a closer look at the slips it looks like Unleashed tune is actually stronger through 1/8 mile as it traped a bit more but then top end they kind of equal out. I think you needed to run a few more with lms tune and then switch back to unleashed again for a few. I doubt one company can tune more things then the other. It just depends how agressive they want to get.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I doubt one company can tune more things then the other. It just depends how agressive they want to get.

That is actually inaccurate. There are about 18-19k different tables that make up an EB ECU. For example, other tuning companies might only give you access to 100, and if you want to alter a table that is outside of the 100 pre-selected tables you are out of luck. For that reason, we engineered our own software.

 

[ElvenSho]

I doubt one company can tune more things then the other. It just depends how agressive they want to get.

That is actually inaccurate. There are about 18-19k different tables that make up an EB ECU. For example, other tuning companies might only give you access to 100, and if you want to alter a table that is outside of the 100 pre-selected tables you are out of luck. For that reason, we engineered our own software.

Ok I guess I was wrong. I just figured with that many more options to tune the car there would be a bigger difference in the tune. Also what I noticed with my previous car which was not a turbo so it could be different is that right after loading the tune the car feels more responsive and stronger so that could be working in your tunes favor here also. I am not here to defend one company or the other just saying what I noticed. I am going with Unleashed for my tune mainly because I already have the x3 tuner. I think both of the companies do a good job. Plus I do like the fact that Unleashed looks at the logs and adjusts for my car even though I understand there wont be a big difference one way or the other.

 

[SHOnUup]

I re-flashed my tune in between runs and ran worse times even though the shifting felt more aggressive. So I think that the Livernois tune was at a slight disadvantage.

Rich

 

[ElvenSho]

I re-flashed my tune in between runs and ran worse times even though the shifting felt more aggressive. So I think that the Livernois tune was at a slight disadvantage.

Rich

That's strange. My 2014 Ford Focus (yes I know I actually tuned it) felt stronger after re-flashing and I did it many times. Maybe because its N/A? If anything I would think the tune would slowly get weaker due to the car learning the driving habits unless you were to beat on it 24/7.  This is me just guessing although there is a thread around here where people recommend to re-flash every few weeks or when going to track.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Well, if you really think about everything possible was stacked against us.
We did a remote tune.
No "required" logging was done.
Only 20 mins between runs.
And he obviously spun on our tuning....

Logging on your EB does not yield a better tune, the OP has independently and inadvertently proven this here.

 

[ElvenSho]

Well, if you really think about everything possible was stacked against us.
We did a remote tune.
No "required" logging was done.
Only 20 mins between runs.
And he obviously spun on our tuning....

Logging on your EB does not yield a better tune, the OP has independently and inadvertently proven this here.

You might be right. I wonder if Torrie would agree with you about not needing to log on the EB engines... What if you guys infact do have a tune thats just a tiny bit faster but is pushing the limits of the engine more due to not reading each engines reaction to the tune (logs) which in return could kill the engine faster? Who blew up more EB engines u guys or Unleashed? (Serious question I have no idea) Torrie should get in this threat to give his view on it all! I also think this can be a mature conversation I am not saying to bash each other.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Well, if you really think about everything possible was stacked against us.
We did a remote tune.
No "required" logging was done.
Only 20 mins between runs.
And he obviously spun on our tuning....

Logging on your EB does not yield a better tune, the OP has independently and inadvertently proven this here.

You might be right. I wonder if Torrie would agree with you about not needing to log on the EB engines... What if you guys infact do have a tune thats just a tiny bit faster but is pushing the limits of the engine more due to not reading each engines reaction to the tune (logs) which in return could kill the engine faster? Who blew up more EB engines u guys or Unleashed? (Serious question I have no idea) Torrie should get in this threat to give his view on it all! I also think this can be a mature conversation I am not saying to bash each other.

The problem with the end user logging is that you do not have the ability to log 100% accurate information VIA the OBDii port. Whereas, Torrie and us as well are hooking up to the ECU with a laptop, and using tuning software to monitor live info from the ECU. The sample rates and PIDS that you get from your monitors, apps and such are EXTREMELY poor. Giving us imperfect information. We learned this back in 2009 when we first dived head first into the EB platform.

Keep in mind that we have more access to more of the ECUs tables than anyone using one the big 3rd party tuning suppliers. Because we know the logic and engineering of the EB ECU so well I would argue your example being probable. I don't want to call it impossible, because anything is possible. BUT, we have yet to blow up a client's vehicle with our tuning regardless of it being remote or dyno tuning. Not that we are aspiring to by any means lol, but it has not happened.

As for the tuning and being on the edge, we actually run less boost that almost anyone else. Our tunes add maybe 1-2# of boost to a stock car, keeping everything in the "happy" range for efficiency. We see forums posts of people running, 5, and sometimes even 10# of boost more than stock and wondering why they run slower than our tunes. It shouldn't take much to observe which version is safer, and which is living life dangerously. If you can make the same (or more) power at less boost, why run more? It will just shorten the life of, well, everything.

 

[SHOdded]

Logging on your EB does not yield a better tune, the OP has independently and inadvertently proven this here.

I don't think any such thing has been proven.  This is one dataset out of many such possible datasets. 

As to what constitutes a better tune, is it the comfort level of the driver with the vehicle's behavior, is it that tenths of a second,  is it about breaking new ground?  Some people like to know for themselves what's going on with their machines.  Datalogging has its' place, and it is not in the shadows.

And by the way,  as vehicles age, their individual personalities do emerge based on the lives they have lived.  Datalogging can help identify problem areas and keep the tune in a safety zone.

 

[J-Will]

Logging on your EB does not yield a better tune, the OP has independently and inadvertently proven this here.

I don't think any such thing has been proven.  This is one dataset out of many such possible datasets. 

As to what constitutes a better tune, is it the comfort level of the driver with the vehicle's behavior, is it that tenths of a second,  is it about breaking new ground?  Some people like to know for themselves what's going on with their machines.  Datalogging has its' place, and it is not in the shadows.

And by the way,  as vehicles age, their individual personalities do emerge based on the lives they have lived.  Datalogging can help identify problem areas and keep the tune in a safety zone.

I hear you.  But that is like saying Ford needs to personally log, collect, and comb through each persons car in order to install a baseline code.  Datalogging is a method to educate the tuner on how the changes impacted the vehicle.

 

[wasinger3000]

Logging on your EB does not yield a better tune, the OP has independently and inadvertently proven this here.

I don't think any such thing has been proven.  This is one dataset out of many such possible datasets. 

As to what constitutes a better tune, is it the comfort level of the driver with the vehicle's behavior, is it that tenths of a second,  is it about breaking new ground?  Some people like to know for themselves what's going on with their machines.  Datalogging has its' place, and it is not in the shadows.

And by the way,  as vehicles age, their individual personalities do emerge based on the lives they have lived.  Datalogging can help identify problem areas and keep the tune in a safety zone.

I hear you.  But that is like saying Ford needs to personally log, collect, and comb through each persons car in order to install a baseline code.  Datalogging is a method to educate the tuner on how the changes impacted the vehicle.

What you just said is far from an acceptable comparison.

If this is to be a true comparison between both companies tunes then the unleashed tune should be used to its fullest potential by using datalog's.

Seeing that LMS does not offer datalog support then the tune you get from them is their highest offering for you car.

Why not use the entirety of what you pay for?

 

[J-Will]

Logging on your EB does not yield a better tune, the OP has independently and inadvertently proven this here.

I don't think any such thing has been proven.  This is one dataset out of many such possible datasets. 

As to what constitutes a better tune, is it the comfort level of the driver with the vehicle's behavior, is it that tenths of a second,  is it about breaking new ground?  Some people like to know for themselves what's going on with their machines.  Datalogging has its' place, and it is not in the shadows.

And by the way,  as vehicles age, their individual personalities do emerge based on the lives they have lived.  Datalogging can help identify problem areas and keep the tune in a safety zone.

I hear you.  But that is like saying Ford needs to personally log, collect, and comb through each persons car in order to install a baseline code.  Datalogging is a method to educate the tuner on how the changes impacted the vehicle.

What you just said is far from an acceptable comparison.

If this is to be a true comparison between both companies tunes then the unleashed tune should be used to its fullest potential by using datalog's.

Seeing that LMS does not offer datalog support then the tune you get from them is their highest offering for you car.

Why not use the entirety of what you pay for?

Or their tuner is knowledgeable enough to understand how the tweaks impact the vehicle from extensive in house tests and don't need the customer to show them what their changes did.

I can play this game all day. The customer only need be satisfied by their purchase. Two different companies, with two different approaches to put a customers mind at ease.

 

[wasinger3000]

Logging on your EB does not yield a better tune, the OP has independently and inadvertently proven this here.

I don't think any such thing has been proven.  This is one dataset out of many such possible datasets. 

As to what constitutes a better tune, is it the comfort level of the driver with the vehicle's behavior, is it that tenths of a second,  is it about breaking new ground?  Some people like to know for themselves what's going on with their machines.  Datalogging has its' place, and it is not in the shadows.

And by the way,  as vehicles age, their individual personalities do emerge based on the lives they have lived.  Datalogging can help identify problem areas and keep the tune in a safety zone.

I hear you.  But that is like saying Ford needs to personally log, collect, and comb through each persons car in order to install a baseline code.  Datalogging is a method to educate the tuner on how the changes impacted the vehicle.

What you just said is far from an acceptable comparison.

If this is to be a true comparison between both companies tunes then the unleashed tune should be used to its fullest potential by using datalog's.

Seeing that LMS does not offer datalog support then the tune you get from them is their highest offering for you car.

Why not use the entirety of what you pay for?

Or their tuner is knowledgeable enough to understand how the tweaks impact the vehicle from extensive in house tests and don't need the customer to show them what their changes did.

I can play this game all day. The customer only need be satisfied by their purchase. Two different companies, with two different approaches to put a customers mind at ease.

I don't think you quite grasp the concept at hand. Maybe your current kool-aid fueled ignorance is to blame.

NOT EVERY ENGINE IS THE SAME!

Hence a custom tune profiled by datalog's.

What do you think a dyno tune is? Oh yeah and LMS does dyno tunes. So that makes your previous statement idiotic.

I can do this all day.

 

[J-Will]

Not quite sure what you're attempting to insult me with, but its spelled Kool-Aid.

 

[wasinger3000]

Not quite sure what you're attempting to insult me with, but its spelled Kool-Aid.

Auto correct got the best of me.

I'm not here to insult. Just don't approve of your uneducated blathering.

 

[J-Will]

Since I am uneducated, and you're the educated SME; I will look into purchasing tunes from you. Because of all of your first hand experience in the field.

Oh you don't sell tunes? Perhaps its best to leave the methodology to those that do. If one requires data logging file be sent back and the customer understands and is willing then so be it. If another tuner does jot require logs sent back, and the customer understands then so be it.

 

[wasinger3000]

Since I am uneducated, and you're the educated SME; I will look into purchasing tunes from you. Because of all of your first hand experience in the field.

Oh you don't sell tunes? Perhaps its best to leave the methodology to those that do. If one requires data logging file be sent back and the customer understands and is willing then so be it. If another tuner does jot require logs sent back, and the customer understands then so be it.

Hah.

Have you done any datalog's yourself?

Do you understand what a datalog is used for?

It seems you don't quite understand what is being discussed.

 

[Jtrain]

So the bickering is fun

But I'm more interested in what has a cleaner daily drive?