Hey SBS! I am thinking of meth for intake cooling.. need your suggestions

[TopherSho]

That is how to set when the pump turns on...
There are two other adjustments that need to be made.. There is the "Initial" Rheostat sets the prelim ramp from start to finish... and then there is this... (Again... too lazy to take my own pictures.. credit this one to BPD1151)
This controller has the  gain setings which dictates how fast/how much the meth ramps up while you are spraying or slope... I asked Julio if there was a best practice for this and here is his response..

?Hmm?  This is your Alky kit though right?  This would not be comparable to SNOW-stage-1 which is not a scaling sprayer?  Or do ‘’all’’ kits have a ‘pick up’ to turn on then an ‘initial spray volume’ that increases to ‘’full spray’’ settings with either a internal 'count down' or sensing load (via voltage or boost trap)?

So how did I set it up you might ask? Simply put... I have configured it on LMS's tune and Brads tune... for me it takes about 20 minutes or so using my laptop to datalog through my SCT x4 so I can view real time feeds to make the adjustments... Do a couple slow accelerations while the boost building and monitor the LEDS that came with the Alky kit.. when it hits green I make a note of which KPA it kicked on at.. now I know when it kicks on...
Then I like to do a 3rd gear pull.. I monitor knock, AFR, and STFT... the STFT lets me know how much I am spraying throughout the run...and if I need to make any adjustments based on knock... If my trims are pulling a TON of fuel during the inital kick on the Meth, I adjust the initial back as long as I don't have any knock...

once I get that done, I monitor the rest of the pull for knock and adjust gain accordingly.. once I can get several runs in in where there is no KR then I am done adjusting the kit. My STFT's tell me how much fuel I am offsetting with Methanol... The idea is to just spray enough to stop the knock retard and no more... if you are spraying more than you need, then you are potentially hurting power production from running too rich..

THEORY\QUESTION .. Since I am not going to make the car dependent on meth,  I would then tune for SFFT limits then (I assume?).  IE in small increments find where the SFFT limits are and dial back down and call it good. 

 

[polskifacet]

That is how to set when the pump turns on...
There are two other adjustments that need to be made.. There is the "Initial" Rheostat sets the prelim ramp from start to finish... and then there is this... (Again... too lazy to take my own pictures.. credit this one to BPD1151)
This controller has the  gain setings which dictates how fast/how much the meth ramps up while you are spraying or slope... I asked Julio if there was a best practice for this and here is his response..

?Hmm?  This is your Alky kit though right?  This would not be comparable to SNOW-stage-1 which is not a scaling sprayer?  Or do ‘’all’’ kits have a ‘pick up’ to turn on then an ‘initial spray volume’ that increases to ‘’full spray’’ settings with either a internal 'count down' or sensing load (via voltage or boost trap)?

So how did I set it up you might ask? Simply put... I have configured it on LMS's tune and Brads tune... for me it takes about 20 minutes or so using my laptop to datalog through my SCT x4 so I can view real time feeds to make the adjustments... Do a couple slow accelerations while the boost building and monitor the LEDS that came with the Alky kit.. when it hits green I make a note of which KPA it kicked on at.. now I know when it kicks on...
Then I like to do a 3rd gear pull.. I monitor knock, AFR, and STFT... the STFT lets me know how much I am spraying throughout the run...and if I need to make any adjustments based on knock... If my trims are pulling a TON of fuel during the inital kick on the Meth, I adjust the initial back as long as I don't have any knock...

once I get that done, I monitor the rest of the pull for knock and adjust gain accordingly.. once I can get several runs in in where there is no KR then I am done adjusting the kit. My STFT's tell me how much fuel I am offsetting with Methanol... The idea is to just spray enough to stop the knock retard and no more... if you are spraying more than you need, then you are potentially hurting power production from running too rich..

THEORY\QUESTION .. Since I am not going to make the car dependent on meth,  I would then tune for SFFT limits then (I assume?).  IE in small increments find where the SFFT limits are and dial back down and call it good.

Not sure how much better variable meth injection is then static but we are in the same boat with not making the car meth dependent (for now lol). Snow has a boost sensor for on and off or stage 1 and you set it when you want it to turn on . 5-7 psi is the break point between even running an intercooler so with a fairly tiny range 5 - 13 psi how often are you chilling at 7 or 8 or 9 psi? For me its usually either 0 or 13+ lol.

Also curious on which snow nozzle to use, based on their chart #5 is for our power range 375 ml/min.
Read the notes so I think #3 orange would be ok
https://www.snowperformance.net/category-s/191.htm

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Here is my take....

As you pull through the gears the heat builds up yes? So if you are spaying a static amount from front to back then you either spray too much in the beginning or not enough towards the end...

If you are spaying just enough at the start of your run to not bog out and negatively effect AFRs then by the time you get to third gear for long haul you may not be spraying enough to keep your IATs sufficiently low to keep spark from being pulled... I have not tested this, but that's how it would work in my head...

vs the other scenario which is you spray too much at the start and max out your trims effecting your AFR effectively running stupid rich off the line but it's enough to keep your IATs low in the third gear haul to keep from having spark pulled...

Again, that's how it works in my head... it would make tuning the fuel more difficult I would imagine...

I am not a tuner, but tuning for STFTs is only a part of the equation... there are other variables such a IAT, AFR, knock... Brad would be better suited to answer those questions...

Every tuner I have spoken too has said that variable spray meth is much easier to tune for and works better... again it's the trade offs...

You could keep better fueling and IAT consistency with with a progressive kit... IMHO...

Kits that are single staged generally just have a boost reference.. you set when it sprays and how much...

 

[polskifacet]

Right but your also doubling the initial cost of the system. I'm fairly convinced that I'll be doing the simpler. You can always buy a controller down the road. I'm also just going to run windshield washer fluid which might be frowned upon but it works. Digging online there are decent benefits of running water alone, giving it 30% meth is only making it that much happier. Going to be cool to see the outcomes!

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Right but your also doubling the initial cost of the system. I'm fairly convinced that I'll be doing the simpler. You can always buy a controller down the road. I'm also just going to run windshield washer fluid which might be frowned upon but it works. Digging online there are decent benefits of running water alone, giving it 30% meth is only making it that much happier. Going to be cool to see the outcomes!

Awesome! I am sure you have done your research on which WW fluid to use as some contain detergents and other stuff besides water/methanol that could negatively impact the motor.

I am assuming your going throw AJPTurbo for the meth tune?

FWIW.. Brad needs to come up with a business name!

 

[TopherSho]

Not sure how much better variable meth injection is then static but we are in the same boat with not making the car meth dependent (for now lol). Snow has a boost sensor for on and off or stage 1 and you set it when you want it to turn on . 5-7 psi is the break point between even running an intercooler so with a fairly tiny range 5 - 13 psi how often are you chilling at 7 or 8 or 9 psi? For me its usually either 0 or 13+ lol.
Also curious on which snow nozzle to use, based on their chart #5 is for our power range 375 ml/min., Read the notes so I think #3 orange would be ok
https://www.snowperformance.net/category-s/191.htm

I just received confirmation from SNOW that as expected the stage-1 kit is all on or all off… so like the below from SBS,  it is either run rich for a fraction of time under WoT and replace the plugs every 20k or run light and get cooling at launch, but run warmer at the tail of a 1/4 mile run.  Hmm or spend 150$ more on a variable kit.

Here is my take...

As you pull through the gears the heat builds up yes? So if you are spaying a static amount from front to back then you either spray too much in the beginning or not enough towards the end...

If you are spaying just enough at the start of your run to not bog out and negatively effect AFRs then by the time you get to third gear for long haul you may not be spraying enough to keep your IATs sufficiently low to keep spark from being pulled... I have not tested this, but that's how it would work in my head... vs the other scenario which is you spray too much at the start and max out your trims effecting your AFR effectively running stupid rich off the line but it's enough to keep your IATs low in the third gear haul to keep from having spark pulled...
Again, that's how it works in my head... it would make tuning the fuel more difficult I would imagine... I am not a tuner, but tuning for STFTs is only a part of the equation... there are other variables such a IAT, AFR, knock... Brad would be better suited to answer those questions...
Every tuner I have spoken too has said that variable spray meth is much easier to tune for and works better... again it's the trade offs...
You could keep better fueling and IAT consistency with  a progressive kit... IMHO...
Kits that are single staged generally just have a boost reference.. you set when it sprays and how much...

Thank you.  Sounds right to me as well.  As to the AFR,  If I do not run SUPER over rich the SFFT should compensate?  I mean if I am dialing up the spray in increments I should see the AFR start dropping when we hit over saturation. 

Thank you both,  overall this sounds like I aught to go with a variable spray. 

 

[polskifacet]

Awesome! I am sure you have done your research on which WW fluid to use as some contain detergents and other stuff besides water/methanol that could negatively impact the motor.

Snow Performance
6. What fluid can I use in my system?

• Boost Juice®: This is the best fluid to use and is Snow Performance’s 49% methanol, 51% water mixture that can be shipped to your door or picked up at a local dealer. (If you are using your washer reservoir as the injection tank, Boost Juice® is a great washer fluid – works as a de-icer!)
• Windshield Washer fluid: Only if it is blue in color and rated for -20 deg F. It should have no special additives. This means it is safe to use and made of about 30% methanol, 70% water. If it is another color or another temperature rating, do not use it.
• You can “spike” your Blue -20 Washer fluid to a 50% mixture by adding 3 12OZ yellow bottles of Heet® gas-line-antifreeze to every gallon of washer fluid.
• Mix your own: You just need to make sure the methanol is “neat” and contains no lubricants or other additives. We recommend a 50% mixture.
• Ethanol: It is not as good as methanol, but it can be used as a 2nd best option if you can’t find methanol. It can also be mixed with water up to 50%.
• Do NOT use E85 or any other fluid with gasoline mixed in. It will destroy the fluid delivery part of your Boost Cooler® and instantly void the warranty.
• Isopropyl/Denatured Alcohols: These can be used, but are not as good as methanol. They have a lower BTU, or energy content, and a lower latent heat of vaporization (fancy way of saying how much heat they absorb) as well as a lower octane rating compared to methanol.

 

[TopherSho]

Awesome! I am sure you have done your research on which WW fluid to use as some contain detergents and other stuff besides water/methanol that could negatively impact the motor.

Snow Performance
6. What fluid can I use in my system?

• Boost Juice®: This is the best fluid to use and is Snow Performance’s 49% methanol, 51% water mixture that can be shipped to your door or picked up at a local dealer. (If you are using your washer reservoir as the injection tank, Boost Juice® is a great washer fluid – works as a de-icer!)
• Windshield Washer fluid: Only if it is blue in color and rated for -20 deg F. It should have no special additives. This means it is safe to use and made of about 30% methanol, 70% water. If it is another color or another temperature rating, do not use it.
• You can “spike” your Blue -20 Washer fluid to a 50% mixture by adding 3 12OZ yellow bottles of Heet® gas-line-antifreeze to every gallon of washer fluid.
• Mix your own: You just need to make sure the methanol is “neat” and contains no lubricants or other additives. We recommend a 50% mixture.
• Ethanol: It is not as good as methanol, but it can be used as a 2nd best option if you can’t find methanol. It can also be mixed with water up to 50%.
• Do NOT use E85 or any other fluid with gasoline mixed in. It will destroy the fluid delivery part of your Boost Cooler® and instantly void the warranty.
• Isopropyl/Denatured Alcohols: These can be used, but are not as good as methanol. They have a lower BTU, or energy content, and a lower latent heat of vaporization (fancy way of saying how much heat they absorb) as well as a lower octane rating compared to methanol.

As a interesting side note,  the speedshop that tried to quote me 250/$ labor offers free custom mixed fluid for as long as they are in business ..  half tempted if i can get the costs down.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Not sure how much better variable meth injection is then static but we are in the same boat with not making the car meth dependent (for now lol). Snow has a boost sensor for on and off or stage 1 and you set it when you want it to turn on . 5-7 psi is the break point between even running an intercooler so with a fairly tiny range 5 - 13 psi how often are you chilling at 7 or 8 or 9 psi? For me its usually either 0 or 13+ lol.
Also curious on which snow nozzle to use, based on their chart #5 is for our power range 375 ml/min., Read the notes so I think #3 orange would be ok
https://www.snowperformance.net/category-s/191.htm

I just received confirmation from SNOW that as expected the stage-1 kit is all on or all off… so like the below from SBS,  it is either run rich for a fraction of time under WoT and replace the plugs every 20k or run light and get cooling at launch, but run warmer at the tail of a 1/4 mile run.  Hmm or spend 150$ more on a variable kit.

Here is my take...

As you pull through the gears the heat builds up yes? So if you are spaying a static amount from front to back then you either spray too much in the beginning or not enough towards the end...

If you are spaying just enough at the start of your run to not bog out and negatively effect AFRs then by the time you get to third gear for long haul you may not be spraying enough to keep your IATs sufficiently low to keep spark from being pulled... I have not tested this, but that's how it would work in my head... vs the other scenario which is you spray too much at the start and max out your trims effecting your AFR effectively running stupid rich off the line but it's enough to keep your IATs low in the third gear haul to keep from having spark pulled...
Again, that's how it works in my head... it would make tuning the fuel more difficult I would imagine... I am not a tuner, but tuning for STFTs is only a part of the equation... there are other variables such a IAT, AFR, knock... Brad would be better suited to answer those questions...
Every tuner I have spoken too has said that variable spray meth is much easier to tune for and works better... again it's the trade offs...
You could keep better fueling and IAT consistency with  a progressive kit... IMHO...
Kits that are single staged generally just have a boost reference.. you set when it sprays and how much...

Thank you.  Sounds right to me as well.  As to the AFR,  If I do not run SUPER over rich the SFFT should compensate?  I mean if I am dialing up the spray in increments I should see the AFR start dropping when we hit over saturation. 

Thank you both,  overall this sounds like I aught to go with a variable spray.

The STFT will compensate up to a point... MOST tuners that I have seen use the widebands to manage the additional fuel coming in. So once those get maxxed out which I believe stock will allow them to pull 25% of the fuel before they loose the ability to compensate.

NOW, that being said, there is a delay in how fast the ECU can start pulling fuel once the WB's start reporting back about the mixture.. playing around tuning the kit I have seen the lambda drop into the .68 for a split second while its commanding a lambase of .80 before the ECU is able to start pulling fuel... and boy does it smell like CRAP when you dump fuel lol...

 

[polskifacet]

Boost Switch
$34.99
Nozzle Holder/Check Valve Combo
$29.99
Bulkhead
$17.99
Hyper-Sonic™ Nozzles
$29.99
300 PSI UHO Pump
$144.99

I'm at $257

 

[polskifacet]

In this case there is no need to run Meth at all if you want just the cooling properties. Distilled water is all you require. Wont mess with AFR.

 

[TopherSho]

In this case there is no need to run Meth at all if you want just the cooling properties. Distilled water is all you require. Wont mess with AFR.

I have seen *occasional* (edit) launch knock in really cool weather (but only at launch),  I think 33% meth to 67% water might be ideal.

 

[polskifacet]

I have seen launch knock in really cool weather,  I think 33% meth to 67% water might be ideal.

Exactly what blue -20 windsheild washer fluid is  :blah:

 

[TopherSho]

I have seen launch knock in really cool weather,  I think 33% meth to 67% water might be ideal.

Exactly what blue -20 windsheild washer fluid is  :blah:

Indeed! 

 

[TopherSho]

I have seen launch knock in really cool weather,  I think 33% meth to 67% water might be ideal.

Exactly what blue -20 windsheild washer fluid is  :blah:

Indeed!

ANNOYED!  1st world issues for sure but I cannot decide. 

Under the hood using the WW tank is CHEAP,  like 1/2 the cost.  But becomes less serviceable.
In the trunk is serviceable completely by my giant clonky monkey hands but is VERY expensive. (anything more than 400$ to me is expensive ... i'm old.)

 

[polskifacet]

https://www.mcmaster.com/#1901k22/=18502ol

Matching nickel plated brass - Mcmaster

Bulkhead adapter from snow is really expensive.

 

[polskifacet]

I have seen launch knock in really cool weather,  I think 33% meth to 67% water might be ideal.

Exactly what blue -20 windsheild washer fluid is  :blah:

Indeed!

ANNOYED!  1st world issues for sure but I cannot decide. 

Under the hood using the WW tank is CHEAP,  like 1/2 the cost.  But becomes less serviceable.
In the trunk is serviceable completely by my giant clonky monkey hands but is VERY expensive. (anything more than 400$ to me is expensive ... i'm old.)

Your buying a $150 pump. S!@T better last lol.

 

[TopherSho]

I have seen launch knock in really cool weather,  I think 33% meth to 67% water might be ideal.

Exactly what blue -20 windsheild washer fluid is  :blah:

Indeed!

ANNOYED!  1st world issues for sure but I cannot decide. 

Under the hood using the WW tank is CHEAP,  like 1/2 the cost.  But becomes less serviceable.
In the trunk is serviceable completely by my giant clonky monkey hands but is VERY expensive. (anything more than 400$ to me is expensive ... i'm old.)

Your buying a $150 pump. S!@T better last lol.

You'd think it would. But there is a acceptable rate of failure for production runs that pass QA.  I just do not want to have to tear my front end off to get to it.  Since the tune will not be 'dependent'  I can switch it off and carry on .. but I'll be damned if i have to spend hours under my car fumbling around because i have fists of ham..

 

[polskifacet]

I think the pump is 5 lbs. I was thinking of attaching it to the plastic splash guard and then you can just drop it and do what you have to.Would have to see if it could hold that weight. You could also just zip tie it up so it doesn't push very hard on the cover.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

I think the pump is 5 lbs. I was thinking of attaching it to the plastic splash guard and then you can just drop it and do what you have to.Would have to see if it could hold that weight. You could also just zip tie it up so it doesn't push very hard on the cover.

Oil changes are gonna be a b!tch that way...