High Knock Retard on Stock 16 X-Sport

I don't know that I would worry about it too much if stock...The load and conditions change so rapidly because of the varying boost levels that happen throughout the rev range on the stock tune...So the spark is ever changing because of the compensations, load...It's like the proper spark is a moving target because of the tune...I guess that's how OEM's get good power from 87 octane and engine size...They ride the edge and let the knock sensors tweak it I guess.

And about the spark tables...It's really not as simple as it used to be...There are at least 15 base tables for spark...Then there are adders for air fuel ratio then modifiers for MBT spark then compensations for IAT, ECT, trans oil temp(TOT) then the scaling for OAR

I wouldn't waste time with octane boosters the can be too inconsistent ....Either try VP street blaze or Race Fuel Concentrate in the orange and white cans from summit racing or Jegs...
 
Having it knock for that long, that's REALLY riding the edge.  Fuel economy?  And yet a proper tune nets you more performance, usually better fuel economy, and knock at/near 0 throughout the rev range.
 
If this proper tune increases the boost to get more power, then it must drop the commanded advance way down to have knock at 0.  What is the advance on average at WOT in third on the aftermarket tunes?

I would think leaning out the AFR would only make it worse, since the rich mixture helps cool.
 
Overly rich is bad also

Spark is not dependent on gear.....its purely load and rpm and compensations and modifiers

Ive seen it vary substantially thats why i believe  each tune should custom for each car if max performance is sought

I would say maybe very low teens for spark for 1.55 load for a rough average
 
Low teens with more boost and mine only wants 10 stock.  Something is no bueno!  I know overly rich is bad, but what is overly rich?  I have seen stock tunes running 10.8 AFR, so that would be a lambda of 0.76 on these.  I am a little leaner than that.  Wait a second, I just looked at the last log with the crazy 7.5 knock and it had the Lambda at 0.70!  Holly crap.  That was super rich.  9.85 AFR?!  How did it even run with that?!  the Lambse was right there so it is measuring exactly what is commanded.  What makes it command such a rich mixture.  When knock is sensed, does it only retard timing or does it add fuel too?

The turned way down aftermarket test tune I ran was at 8.00 in the middle of 3rd at 4950rpm with knock at 4.25.  Lambse and Lambda were all at 0.82, so a much nicer AFR.  kPA was 201.  It was still pulling a ton eventhough the tune had it turned way down.  At 5000 rpm still in the middle of 3rd gear, knock jumped to 5.75 and advance dropped to 6.50.  So, even with a good AFR, it was still sensing knock with 8 degrees advance! 

I ordered some Torco!  I just want to see if I can get the knock to 0 somehow.
 
Instead of trying octane booster or race gas, I'd put a tune in it and start logging it instead.

Stock, these things run rich enough to make the tailpipes look like a diesel.

I would be surprised if a good tune doesn't make your KR go away. 
 
sholxgt said:
Instead of trying octane booster or race gas, I'd put a tune in it and start logging it instead.

Stock, these things run rich enough to make the tailpipes look like a diesel.

I would be surprised if a good tune doesn't make your KR go away.
Click to expand...

I did, and had audible knock which is why I went back to the stock tune so I could see what is going on.  I also had a dialed back aftermarket tune put in so I could log and see what is going on.  Read the last paragraph from reply #25.  I could try another tuner, but I don't want to spend another $150 on tunes that won't work because I already have too much KR on a stock tune.  The last log on the super dialed back aftermarket tune still showed knock of 5 so it only had advance at 6.5 to 8 degrees in 3rd, even with a good 0.82 measured AFR.  He was commanding a super low advance because I had audible knock in his previous tune eventhough it was an 87 octane tune and I have always only had 91 in the tank.  He also saw how much advance the stock tune wanted from my logs, so he knew where to start and it still pulled a bunch with the KR.
 
Since you have not mentioned the tuner you are using, I want to throw this out there...

LME, Unleashed and Leading Edge Tuning are well known shops that have a lot of experience with the transverse 3.5 EB. If you are using a different tuner, that could be your problem.  There is also a wild card tuner here on the forum that has shown a remarkable ability to fine tune these cars.

Do you have any modifications?

Edited to add...I would also be frustrated. 
 
I said the name in an earlier post but it blocked it.  He doesn't have the best reputation but he definitely knows what to do with the F150's.  I have been racing a 93 Stang with a blown 347 in it for years and I have seen multiple F150's he tuned put down some impressive times at Sonoma Raceway.  The fellow racer that I have talked to for years has run a 12.50 with just a tune.  It is a 2015 supercab 4wd 6.5' bed.  He is on his 3rd EB tuned by Southern Speed and they were all fast.  His 15 is the fastest but now he has a 17 on the way.  Southern Speed has tune only SHO's running low 12's and two tune only Sports running low 13's.  I just want to hit the 13's.  I did see a 2015 Southern Speed Sport with tune only mod at Sonoma run 13.5 and that was not an aggressive tune.  So, I was pretty optimistic.  I think he needs to fine tune some stuff on the 16's, but I don't feel that the tune is the problem here.  I will work with him more as I get time to test tunes, but this is my wife's daily driver so I don't get much time with it.  I have been tempted to try another tuner, but with the stock tune commanding such a low amount of advance, I am really skeptical that it has any room left in it.  There just has to be something wrong.  I am just not sure how much effort I am willing to put into figuring it out.  I need to focus my attention on my Mustang which needs a new crank and the house which needs a ton of work.  My wife gets pissed when I spend time messing with our brand new car which is the only thing around which should not need any of my time.  Other than changing oil and rotating the tires which I did yesterday.  I also tried wrapping the knock sensor wires as posted by SHOboat, but that didn't help.  I didn't think it would since I believe that the readings are real.

It is very disappointing to say the least.  I have always raced every vehicle I have owned and knowing the potential of the Ecoboost after watching that F150 race was a big deciding factor on this purchase.  With that said, it is 0.8 seconds quicker than our 2002 that I did some mods to.  The 2002 did launch a lot harder though.  It had 2.0 60fts and my best on that 14.56 run with our 16 was 2.194.  Most were 2.23 area.  It is still pretty quick though since my 93 5.0LX 5 speed Stang was only 0.05 quicker bone stock and 1mph slower!

I was just hoping that someone on here had a similar experience and were able to track it down to root cause.

Thanks!
 
I think it would be money well spent to to try a different tuner.  Not that the guy you're using is bad, but the transverse EB is very different from the others.  I suspect we have different cam profiles in addition to other things.  If you look at our timing it is very different from the other EB's.

The KR stock does not surprise me.  The factory tune is very rich and has a ton of timing advance.  It then very actively uses the knock sensor.

At least with a different tuner, you could eliminate that as a possibility.  I suspect though that you may see the problem go away.  We have had others here with fuel issues magically disappear with the right tune.  Your timing issue may do the same.

 
To the OP think it will be beneficial if you post some pic's of the engine bay because there was a recent member that had issues with his 16 x- sport and found issues with the harness/connector that supports the rear bov causing an under boost condition and certainly not implying its related to your case but think it might help to do so,also think a dealer visit might be your next step especially having warranty and all.....due setup your signature,thanks.  Z
 
I am not sure what I would tell the dealer to look for, unless I could get it to ping by running 87.  I may do that.  I did see that post and inspected all of my wiring under the engine cover.  Everything looks good.  It ran 14.56, which is quicker than other stockers I have seen so it seems to be running well.  Anyone ever had weird PCV issues?
 
The dealer might need to re-flash the PCM to the latest calibration/update if available for your particular model,this might help in your case.  Z
 
AJP turbo said:
Wonder what the dealer would do even if they heard it pinging
Click to expand...

In my experience, they are never able to replicate the condition. Until it's brought in on a flat bed with fluids pouring out, they see it as fine.
 
Yeah its actually just kind of a shitty situation...Not sure what a reasonable effort for diagnosis would be...Wouldn't blame them for not doing anything as nothing is broken yet...And waiting for a failure would most likely surely be cheaper than blindly changing parts and R and R.

You could see if there is an update or try a different tuner but there is really no secret to spark tuning...If a car is on 2 different tunes and one is knocking at a certain load and rpm with certain environmental conditions then if all things are equal the other tune will knock too if operating in those same conditions if the same amount of spark is commanded.

I have seen some cars run 17 degrees at 1.6 load and 130 degree IAT2 and another car that is exactly the same on be happy at 10 degrees spark....And I can't really come up with a good explanation...Fuel maybe? but Anti Knock Index(AKI) should be standardized from pump to pump

I say it's false knock but if you think you hear it pinging then that kills that idea...If you run race and it makes the KR go away then it's real.

Strange problem though
 
Yes, I figure that even if I could get it to knock on 87, the dealer would just put better gas in it and have it go away and tell me I got bad gas.  I don't want them beating the crap out of it letting it ping all over the place while they diagnose because they'll do more damage than good.  I already tried to get the dealer to reflash before I tuned it because I didn't want to bring it in later for something and get a new strategy.  I told them about a couple issues and asked if they would give it the latest to see if it would go away.  They said that they would not do anything unless they could verify the complaint and then found a TSB saying that a reflash would fix that.  What a bunch of BS.  How hard is it to just flash the damn thing.  Fine, charge me for 5 minutes of labor!  I have never heard the stock tune detonate, but I definitely have heard the aftermarket tune detonate.  The tuner did not believe me until I showed him my stock log and he was not happy with the amount of knock the stock tune showed with 91.  What if the damn crank sensor was off a few degrees.  I have no idea if that is possible, but if it is then I should be able to get a tune that will work, it just has to command a super low timing.  It wouldn't just mess up WOT though.

That is the whole reason I want to put race fuel in it or that Torco stuff.  I just want to see if it is possible to get this thing to read 0 knock.  It is at least one more piece of information.  I need to call my tuner.  He doesn't like to do email.  He is old school and wants to talk through it.  It is just easier for me to get on the computer during work hours than a long phone conversation.  I want to see what he thinks of the logs I did with his "test" tune.

I only want to use someone that has done 2016 Sports.  The guys with the most experience with these use their own tuner that doesn't log, which is why I didn't go with them.  I would be flying blind right now with theirs.  I wouldn't know if fuel was going away or what.
 
I would think it's more important to get the knock issue taken care of (assuming it's a programmable fix) first, then worry about the way it was fixed.  You can always use SCT (or Torque Pro, or Forscan, or ...) to do datalogs on stock vs tuned with the new guys.  It may not be completely transparent what was done, but you can very likely get a rough idea.
 
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