High Knock Retard on Stock 16 X-Sport

Do your custom tunes pull any timing on the shift?  The stock tune looks like it retards the timing for 300ms around the shift.  It pulls anywhere from 8-16 degrees during the shift.  Is all of that eliminated on your aftermarket tunes or did your tuner leave a little of that in?
 
You dont really want the spark retard eliminated on the shifts...its part of the tq reduction for drivetrain preservation and helps with knock retard on boost spikes on wot upshifts
 
Hey Guys,

I just wanted to give a quick update on what is going on with my wife's Explorer.  The good news is that I PM'd AJP Turbo and asked him if he was willing to work with me on my Explorer and see if he could give me a usable tune and maybe help figure out what is wrong with this thing.  AJP said he was willing to work with me.  He might not be happy I share this piece of info, but he didn't even want any money unless he was able to get me something I was happy with.  We are still working on it, but I had 3 tunes before I sent him any money.  I do have a tune that has more power and less knock than the stock tune, so I sent him some money for the tunes.

Rev 1 was kind of a test with not much changed.  Rev 2 launched a lot harder and had less knock than stock.  AJP Turbo has been great to work with.  I am hoping to get a couple more tunes, once I get this sling off of my arm (just had shoulder surgery) and can try to get rid of some false knock I have.  Driving and datalogging with 1 arm is a PITA. 

I am almost certain some knock detected is false.  Back to back runs at the track in the same conditions netted a 3 degree difference in advance.  This was also on 96 octane with only 6 degrees advance with a perfect 0.80 measured AFR, so there is no way it should have needed to drop the timing more than that.  This was with less than 13psi of boost.  It was a couple weeks ago, so I would need to double check the log for exact numbers, but it was somewhere around there.  A couple of the runs had higher knock readings in 3rd at the track with 96 octane than it did on the street with 91.  At part throttle, it adds a bunch of advance (knock reads negative).  So I think I am still suffering from some false knock.  The quicker passes had around 7-8 degrees advance and I think the ones that slowed down had 4-5 degrees.  The temps were the same but the knock went up which brought timing down.  I still never see the KR in the 7's like I did stock!

Anyway, this thing is fighting him because it just doesn't want any advance.  He has had to lower the advance from stock to be able to keep the knock in check.  I am pretty sure I have some false knock, eventhough the 2016 has some rubber insulation on the knock sensor wires and I tried to isolate them more like in the posts on this board.  However, I know some was real since I could hear the knock with the *** tune.  I couldn't log the knock however with that tune. I did see that he was only commanding like 10 degrees though so it didn't look crazy.  The boost was hitting the peak at times of the 2-bar though, so it did have more boost and I don't know how much.  It was probably way up there because it was really fast and spun the tires on the 1-2 shift.  I did not like the drivability of the *** tune regardless. 

AJP Turbo's tune launches harder than stock at somewhere around 40% or more throttle positions, shifts nicely, and still drives like stock at lower throttle positions.  He also kept the paddle shifter functionality when in D and changed it to hold the gear you selected when in S, which is nice.  Before in S, it would still downshift on you if it felt you were lugging it.  You couldn't do a 3rd gear pull from under 4k stock because it would downshift on you.  I like that feature and love how much quicker it is off the line.

AJP's Rev 2 picked up 2 tenths in the 60ft and 4 tenths in the 1/4.  That was against a SUPER strong headwind and with the boost and advance fairly low because of whatever is going on with this Explorer.  Even with these limitations, he was able to dial it in and give me a tune that feels much better than stock, especially on the launch which is where I really felt it was lacking stock, at the same time reducing knock.  I need to run his Rev 4 at the track and see how it does, but I want to mess with the knock sensor wires some more and I have to get this sling off first. 

I am hoping we can add a couple more degrees of timing without the knock jumping back up.  I have never heard any audible knock accept when I ran the *** tune.  The *** tune did not look that aggressive as far as timing, and AJP has never seen one require the advance to be lowered so much, so I still have some issues going on and ***'s tune would most likely work on a different Explorer that responds like most others.

Thanks AJP for getting this thing closer to where I want it to be!  I look forward to some fine tuning in the future.  I have an idea I want to run by you, but I need some more logs first.

Thanks again!
 
Glad your getting everything worked out, AJPTURBO is starting to have quite a large following with very good results. Subscribed for future updates.
 
glock-coma said:
Glad your getting everything worked out, AJPTURBO is starting to have quite a large following with very good results. Subscribed for future updates.
i can see why. he actually takes time to tell you what he's doing in the tune and why. makes you feel much more informed and comfortable with the direction he takes with your car. it's not just "here's your tune, see ya later!" that was my issue with southern speed among other things. hope all this hype doesn't give AJP more business than he can handle! lol
 
Yep.  I asked him if I could give him praise before I mentioned his name just in case he did have too much work.  I just wish my Sport could handle a hotter tune.  I want more boost and more advance!  The cool thing is that AJP will make the changes you ask for, as long as it is a safe tune for your vehicle.



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Thanks for the update, glad progress has been made.  What fuel are you using now and how does your OAR look?  What fluid is in the trans?
 
OAR is -0.96 every time.  Chevron or Union 76 91 octane.  Best I can get unless I go to Sonoma Raceway.  Trans fluid stock.  Just about to turn 8000 miles.  Part throttle the KR is always negative.  It adds up to 4 degrees!  WOT, it will still pull some eventhough only 10 degrees is commanded at 100 degrees IAT with 1 degree pulled for every 10 degree rise in IAT.  What upsets me is the inconsistency of the knock.  I did three 3rd gear pulls to 5k yesterday (short road) and the peak KR was 0, -2, and +2.  Temps were the same.  Has anyone got false knock from the sensor on the passenger side?  I haven't messed with the wires on that one yet.


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Is knock sensor value available?  Track that for both banks along with KR, see correlation.  Maybe one or more injectors is leaning out.
 
I only have a pid called knock.  Just 1.  It shows how much advance it is adding or subtracting.  There is no K and KR, just K, but it is KR.  A negative value means it adds advance, and a positive means it retards advance by that much.  I see "spark" (which is my total advance) change by the amount recorded as knock.  I did a couple back to back 0-90mph WOT runs today and it was adding advance, so I wanted to add 2-4 degrees of WOT advance and see what the knock read after that, but my tune has the adjustments turned off.  I need to ask Brad to give me the same tune but allow me to adjust it.  I want to be able to pull timing if I get bad fuel and add timing if I put race gas in.


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I should have specified.  Forscan along with an OBD adapter.  Still may not have it tho.  Need to get a list of PIDs for the EB.
 
It looks like different strategies have different PID's to log.  I would have thought they would be more consistent.  I need a strategy and tune that would allow me to log individual knock or individual advance so I can see which cylinders the knock is coming from.  That could help determine if it is false knock or not.  If it is random, that could be false or real.  If it is just one cyl, I would say it is real.  Or if it is the two where the PCV gases come in.


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16MagSport said:
nickwalter4 said:
No i cant. I just keep an eye on it. For now its cold startup during cold temps. It doest seem to do it at all at temp anymore. Just bothersome and a cause for worry. Being that my wife drives it more than i do . (The toddler seat is easier to reach than in the lancer. Guess ill see if it goes away in spring. When weather warms up.




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Nick, you should start a new topic because your issue is nothing like mine.  I was getting false knock which was seen in my datalogs.  It seems like the last zip tying that I did to the knock sensor wires helped eliminate some false KR and made it more consistent, but I still seem to have some noise which causes it to register KR at WOT.  I can add advance and get the same KR and add octane and get hte same KR, so AJP and I decided to turn things up a little.  It is still not a really aggressive tune, but it feels much better than stock.  0.75  seconds quicker in the 1/4 and 4mph faster!  It will do even better if the car had time to cool down and if the air was even cooler.  My IAT's were still pretty hot.

Did you like my update in the previous post?  I raced it on Wednesday with about the 8th tune revision from AJP and it was SUPER consistent.  I was able to make it to the final.  It was a double breakout run.  I crossed a foot ahead but I broke out by 4 thousandths more than my opponent.  So close!  I would have won but I didn't stage deep enough.  A deeper stage would have slowed my ET by a few tenths and my reaction would have been better.  Anyway, it ran 13.811 @ 98.2mph.  Stock was 14.56 @ 94mph.

Thanks AJP Turbo!!

Now for a little more aggressive "Race" tune and take advantage of some good fuel at the track.  Not cheap though.  $10/gal for 100 octane.
 
Thanks AJP.  I sent you 2 logs out of my 10 passes.  1st and last, which was slowest and quickest.  I have not even looked at them yet.  I am guessing the only difference will be IAT's dropped for the quickest and in turn gave it a couple degrees more advance.  I could feel it pulling harder once it cooled a little.  Drove it tonight in the cold air and it felt GOOD!


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