J2 Dual Feed Intake

[StealBlueSHO]

Ok... so people smarter than me... please help me understand as I got into a bit of a discussion/disagreement with the the maker of this intake setup that is currently being built....

While the idea is great to have each turbo fed off separate tubes I feel like the filter element sits up too high with the end result not being able to put any kind of heat shielding between it and the rest of the engine bay....

This will lead to the intake system most likely pulling in the heat from the engine bay quite often which would mean air that is much warmer than ambient being pulled into the turbos. Being as how much heat these motors produce, I don't think this is a great design.

The response I got back was that it doesn't matter how hot the air is coming into the intake, its all up to the intercooler to keep the IAT2's down and that filter placement is not a big issue.... nor the ability to seal it off from the rest of the motor...

Here are my concerns/questions...

1: If I am pulling hot air from the engine into the intake due to the placement of the airfilter, wouldn't that cause the turbo's to work harder to generate the same amount of boost? Thus decreasing the life the turbos? Hot air is less dense than cold air.

2: If I am pulling hot air into the turbo's, wouldn't that also mean that the air coming into the intercooler is warmer which makes the overall air coming out of the intercooler warmer?

3:  While I realize that the the air would be cleared out relatively quickly when your at the track, every day driving such a sitting in traffic would be an issue with this intake since your constantly sucking in hot air from the motor?


Thoughts opinions? I was pretty much slammed for bringing these issues up and was told the benefits of having each turbo fed independently overrides the "small" issue of not getting fresh air into the intake... 

 

[SHOdded]

Valid concerns.  Since bamsho has demonstrated that having cold air from the signature light area is better than the stock location, at least for the dragstrip, the reverse should hold true as well.  Hot air rises, cold air settles.  Just no 2 ways about it.  Certainly does not look like there is room for shielding, or at the least very very tight.  Chalkmarking would tell the story, might just need a tall strip like the Airaid does?

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

"The response I got back was that it doesn't matter how hot the air is coming into the intake, its all up to the intercooler to keep the IAT2's down and that filter placement is not a big issue.... nor the ability to seal it off from the rest of the motor"...

Kenne Belle says that guy is an idiot.

http://kennebell.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Kenne-Bell-Warning-Hot-Air-Underhood-Inlet-Kits.pdf

Our intercoolers are challenged from the factory with a closed system, how is it going to contend with hotter air from an open system?

 

[SaveMelMac]

There would be some trade off, higher iat vs. airflow. I guess it would depend on how much more air the intake could flow. With our cars not having a maf, I’m not sure if there is a direct way to measure the difference of flow. If that intake flowed significantly more, I would take the trade off few degrees higher IAT.

 

[NITSOOB]

Hotter air is less dense, so your not gaining much air when the hood is closed, there is also less pressure vs ambient.

 

[autobahn terror]

I have almost the same exact setup, (Hennessy CAI), but with a box. A thin box can be fabbed out of aluminum for fairly cheap. Add some Rubber Weather stripping to the top IOT keep some of the heat out. What  I do notice is the angle of the pipes and the filter are such that it is really limiting the room you have to work with. I would see if you can get the top pipe extended longer to have the orientation of the filter be more strait up and down; maybe the lower pipe to the frunt turbo shorter to sink the filter into the bay deeper. It would net you more room for fabing a box.

FWIW thou, You are running meth, so your IAT's as measured at the Intake Manifold would be mildly affected if at all. As far as air density it will definitely affect the air charge density and temp

 

[jbeez]

They are working to box the filter in AFAIK

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[sm105k]

I love Kenne Belle.

 

[irondoor19]

"Thoughts opinions? I was pretty much slammed for bringing these issues up and was told the benefits of having each turbo fed independently overrides the "small" issue of not getting fresh air into the intake... "

I hate when SOME People think they know everything,
and your valid Questions are gum on the bottom of their shoe
ASK these Guys if they want to Design a NEW Intercooler...?

 

[J-Will]

That is basically the stock location.  I dont know if it'd be any hotter than stock.  Without the snorkel that the stock box uses, wouldnt the air coming in from the snorkel location help dissipate heat away from the filter?

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

That is basically the stock location.  I dont know if it'd be any hotter than stock.  Without the snorkel that the stock box uses, wouldnt the air coming in from the snorkel location help dissipate heat away from the filter?

1x6 stock fresh opening air isn't going to overcome the massive heat under the hood.

 

[J-Will]

That is basically the stock location.  I dont know if it'd be any hotter than stock.  Without the snorkel that the stock box uses, wouldnt the air coming in from the snorkel location help dissipate heat away from the filter?

1x6 stock fresh opening air isn't going to overcome the massive heat under the hood.

Maybe not.

I'm skeptical of this intake because we have yet to see one produce real gains.

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[Suddueth13]

1: If I am pulling hot air from the engine into the intake due to the placement of the airfilter, wouldn't that cause the turbo's to work harder to generate the same amount of boost? Thus decreasing the life the turbos? Hot air is less dense than cold air.

2: If I am pulling hot air into the turbo's, wouldn't that also mean that the air coming into the intercooler is warmer which makes the overall air coming out of the intercooler warmer?

3:  While I realize that the the air would be cleared out relatively quickly when your at the track, every day driving such a sitting in traffic would be an issue with this intake since your constantly sucking in hot air from the motor

1: No, the boost pressure is read at the intake manifold which is post intercooler.

2: This isn’t always the case. It really depends how efficient the intercooler is. Contrary to popular belief, our intercooler is fairly efficient. An air to air intercooler can only cool charge temps down to ambient. If the intercooler can cool the charge temps down to 10* above ambient with the stock intake, it will be able to do the same with higher inlet temperatures from an aftermarket intake so long as it’s within the intercoolers efficiency range.

3: This is where the real issue is. While the vehicle is moving, under hood temperatures are stable enough that you wouldn’t be worried about temperature spikes. Sitting in traffic is where you’ll start to see heat soak. Problem is that once the intercooler heat soaks, it doesn’t matter where the inlet air source is coming from. If you’re in traffic that is that bad, you’re not concerned with hitting 20psi and not seeing negative ignition corrections anyway.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Yes, boost is measured at the intake manifold and before the throttle body.  That wasn’t the question.


If the air going into the turbo inlet from the intake is hot air from the under the hood, the compressor is going to work harder to generate the same amount of boost as cold air.

Hot air is less dense... so you need more of it to create the same amount of boost as colder air. To achieve this the wastegate is gonna to close more to get the compressor to spin faster so tt can compress more air to achieve target boost....

I would think this would cause more wear and tear on the turbos.

But in any event.... after I was told the return on investment of developing a box to enclose the filter was not worth it, and that it didn’t matter....surprise... they are now developing a box that seals to the hood just like BPD1151 setup....

Irritating that the guy putting this together would be such a **** about a suggestion, hammer me on how useless it would be, then turn around and do it anyway....



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[SaveMelMac]

Boost pressure is relative. 10 psi is 10 psi no matter the air temp. Pressure can change with air temp in a static environment but a engine isn’t that. Hotter air has less oxygen molecules that reach the combustion chamber. The turbos aren’t working any harder sucking in warmer air. What we should really be taking about is flow.

 

[Suddueth13]

Yes, boost is measured at the intake manifold and before the throttle body.  That wasn’t the question.


If the air going into the turbo inlet from the intake is hot air from the under the hood, the compressor is going to work harder to generate the same amount of boost as cold air.

Hot air is less dense... so you need more of it to create the same amount of boost as colder air. To achieve this the wastegate is gonna to close more to get the compressor to spin faster so tt can compress more air to achieve target boost....

I would think this would cause more wear and tear on the turbos.

But in any event.... after I was told the return on investment of developing a box to enclose the filter was not worth it, and that it didn’t matter....surprise... they are now developing a box that seals to the hood just like BPD1151 setup....

Irritating that the guy putting this together would be such a **** about a suggestion, hammer me on how useless it would be, then turn around and do it anyway....



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The computer is constantly adjusting boost pressure to meet torque targets. The turbos wouldn’t be doing anything different than stock because again, while you’re commanding boost, you’re moving which means you’re not sucking in anything different than stock. You’re not going full throttle in the middle of traffic in 100* weather.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Agreed, I poorly worded the point I was trying to make...

10 psi is 10 psi on a particular turbo...But 10psi of hot air is not near as oxygen dense as cooler air. Thus why you see people having fuel pressure issues during the winter months and not the warmer months. More oxygen requires more fuel.

What I should have said was that in order to achieve the same power production that you get with colder air you will need more volume of the hotter air.

You can debate 9 ways to Sunday on whether you should be more concerned with or not with the IC being the real issue here with the heatsoak issues vs the pre turbo intake system....

However, being as we don’t have an aftermarket readily available intercooler to help yet, it would be beneficial to keep the air coming into the turbo from intake system as cool as possible to assist in anyway...

Hot air hitting the compressor when it can be avoided is never as effective as getting fresh cool air.


But again... this is a moot point because they are now developing a box to help insulate the filter from the rest of the engine bay.





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[NITSOOB]

I think a heat shield only helps slightly.  There's a reason why many modded cars put the turbo out in front of the bumper, or manufacturers go to great lengths to draw ambient air.