Livernois Tune Madness on "Winter Blend"

[Livernois Motorsports]

The Explorer is a completely different ball of wax when compared to the SHO in the OP. We really should keep the two separated. Even you cannot argue that the fuel that is available in the winter months is inferior in quality to what is readily available throughout the remainder of the year. With all of the other additives how do the law of thermodynamics not apply anymore? Things like E85, E10, C4H10 and other fuels all have different chemical properties, and these would obviously lend to different reactions. These differences WILL lead to quirks in performance VS the warmer months.

 

[SHOnUup]

Have a local buddy who was experiencing a little "breaking up" during WOT at high rpms...finally got him to load the 91 V9 tune. All is fine on that file........

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But going to a lower octane tune would lose some power, so it kind of defeats the purpose?

I've talked with many Torrie tuned guys that have lower tune files for when the temp drops below a certain degree also.

From reading posts here for some time, seems quite a few people have been running lower tune files in the winter for precautionary reasons for years.

I truly don't think we can expect a tune that is pushing the fuel limits in good conditions with better fuel to be the same tune we use during winter with a lesser fuel and them COLD temps.



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[ajpturbo]

Its actually really easy to compensate for aircharge temp...no reason to have a winter tune and summer tune...just lazy tuning if u ask me...its not much to ask really

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

You failed to answer the questions...that seems like rather lazy posting.

Taking cheap shots at us is not furthering the thread, nor is it helping anyone. We will not engage in any slander back and forth with you or anyone else. We let our extremely long and spotless record and the records that we set speak for themselves. If you would like to share your prowess with the community feel free.

If you wish to only try to show how much better you are than us produce world records, we did.

 

[ajpturbo]

Something doesnt seem so spotless at the moment...good point i dont intend to build my daily driven taurus to world record levels so you got me there

Actually i do share numerical values on a regular basis to help the community.

And i did just point out where to look and how easily compensations are for cold climate without needing separate  tunes

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

So then why not stick to factual/helpful posting, like we do? That is what companies do...help. We have never shied away from an issue. We have never shied away from helping another company's clients either. You are just taking slanderous slights at us. We are more than happy to have you HELP in the thread, but we will not allow someone to barraide the company nor our clients. You are the only one that is arguing the validity of the lack of quality of fueling in the winter months. Why is that? Why is it that all of our competitors often refer/differ clients to us because of our expertise, yet you feel it necessary to do the antithesis?

As for spotless, we have not failed a client's car. I think that a record like ours is deemed spotless.

 

[bpd1151]

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[Livernois Motorsports]

Thank you.

 

[ZSHO]

I have put over 36,000 miles since purchasing my car new back on 8/13 and have  drove through so many states and N.J for the most part has crap gas and no E-85 fuel and no Chevron gas stations,plainly 93 octane is not the same everywhere you go,so its important to choose the best octane available locally and use a well frequent,high turn around gas station,makes you wonder why many people experience poor mpg.  Z

 

[SHOdded]

So far, this winter, I have found BP 87 to work splendidly in my '07 Edge.  Previously, the only fuel that had worked flawlessly at this time of year had been from this one particular Exxon station.  No idea on the blending at either station, but they are high volume stations for sure.  Wouldn't go to a low volume station, even if it's top tier, unless forced to.

Fuel quality does make a significant difference in driveability.  I wonder though if enough can be inferred from the ACT to keep the vehicle operating smoothly throughout the rev range, albeit with a slight drop in hp/tq, especially as the EB engines obviously adapt to fuel quality as demonstrated in the LOR.

 

[ajpturbo]

So then why not stick to factual/helpful posting, like we do? That is what companies do...help. We have never shied away from an issue. We have never shied away from helping another company's clients either. You are just taking slanderous slights at us. We are more than happy to have you HELP in the thread, but we will not allow someone to barraide the company nor our clients. You are the only one that is arguing the validity of the lack of quality of fueling in the winter months. Why is that? Why is it that all of our competitors often refer/differ clients to us because of our expertise, yet you feel it necessary to do the antithesis?

As for spotless, we have not failed a client's car. I think that a record like ours is deemed spotless.

Being that i am an independent i do not have to be diplomatic or post with taste..i do what is fun.....and i havent barraided you yet lol i prefer keeping the good stuff i know about others private.

Most people here, due to being uneducated in tuning, perceive the lack of a refined tune as a fuel quality problem that manifests itself as knock....which can happen. ..but from what ive seen these engines dont like to vary much from the stock spark tables...maybe we can get together and go over some datalogs and i can show u a one tune fits all for extreme temp swings...or maybe i just have some super gas where i live

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

A couple of suggestions....

Put you oem intake back on...I know, blasphemy right?

Consider though that since the fuel system is already stressed ...coupled with denser cold air and fuel that already has oxygen in it the intake could be creating lean situations, especially during fast WOT transients. If you are adding E-85 this will only make it worse as you are carrying even more O2 in the fuel.

Also, if you are in a fuel challenged area you may want to consider hitting up BND Brian for some ACES IV. I've had success with it and I'm running my current E-20 tune which is a couple revisions hotter since my last strip run.  I know DX has also been able to run his v93 tune on 91 Cali crap gas without issue, so maybe it would be worth the 80 bucks for a quart to get you through winter. It goes a long way as you're only using 2-3 OZ per fillup.

There are 12 states that have winter fuel volatility that is lower than the Fed standard. Maybe we can spot a pattern...

http://www.epa.gov/gasoline-standards/state-fuels

As usual YMMV.

 

[bamsho]

Also look at what years the cars, xsport are dealing with. My '12 never had any winter issues, but my '13 does.  I think has the old parts parts transfered over, so the only difference is the ECU.  It's that gas, plain and simple.  I beat my head against the wall trying to figure out my trouble and finally came to the verdict of crap winter gas.  Not sure where you live Black, but do a search to see if there any non ethanol stations around you and try some. ATP, find a hole and crawl in it, you sure aren't helping any, not sure why you are so hell bent on bashing Livernois,  but grow up.

 

[SHOdded]

Guys, it's important to try and stay civil, please!  The OP stated his opinion that the issue is occurring with the Livernois tune, maybe it is with other tuners also.  We don't know.  Ask them and their views on the matter directly.

Why is better fuel more important to the 13+?  The question is, I think, a chicken-and-egg question.  Ok, so we "fix" the issue with summer fuel.  But is that a "band-aid" (albeit working) solution?  Is there a flaw in the 13 PCM programming, or are the sensors being used with different parameters (tighter), or ...?  The reason it is important to make the distinction is that, for example, in days of yore, engines designed to run on 87 would start to ping or knock.  The common DIY solution was to use a higher-grade gasoline (89, 91, 93, etc), whatever it took to stop that ping/knock.  Rather than actually fix the problem, which might be dirty carb/FI, or valves or timing belt etc.  One simple test is for the owner to run a known good fuel in the wintertime as many have suggested, to see if the problem disappears.  Maybe a VP/racing fuel even.  We can all chip in and help fund this type of test.  Stock tune vs aftermaket tune.  We still won't directly know how the PCM is handling the data flow, though.

The tunes are hard to fault, but no vendor is infallible, "learning" experiences are inevitable.  Asking questions, pushing boundaries is what we are all here for.  Sometimes we will find an answer, sometimes we won't.  And that's OK.

 

[ZSHO]

I thought the OP would be more engaged in wanting to know the probability in finding a solution,think he hasnt been active since starting this post on page one,think he's just sitting back with a box of popcorn and enjoying the SHO,makes you wonder. Btw his issues started right after mixing some E85 in the mix correct? To the OP HOW MUCH E85 did you add initially??

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

I thought the OP would be more engaged in wanting to know the probability in finding a solution,think he hasnt been active since starting this post on page one,think he's just sitting back with a box of popcorn and enjoying the SHO,makes you wonder. Btw his issues started right after mixing some E85 in the mix correct?  Z

Yeah, it would be nice to know if he's still mixing.

However, 1.5 gallons put it right at the 15% threshold.

I really only see it causing an issue if he had a bunch of water in the tank the E grabbed.

Without any logs or any other kind of supporting data we're basically peeing up a rope here.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

Here's some interesting data from the EPA applications for the 3.5 GTDI

2010
http://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=22234&flag=1

Fuel Injector Signal from PCM Fuel flow N/A Static Flow Rate: 163.2 +/- 4.9 g/min
Regulated Fuel Pressure Signal from PCM Fuel pressure N/A 65 psi
Fuel Pump Signal from PCM Fuel Flow N/A Flow: Max. 145 LPH @ 12V/400 kPa
(SAE Net Standard Conditions)


2013
http://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=29137&flag=1

Fuel Injector Signal from PCM Fuel Flow N/A Static Flow Rate: 923.5 +/- 46.2 g/min
Regulated Fuel Pressure Signal from PCM Fuel Pressure N/A N/A - SMRFS
Fuel Flow N/A Nom. Flow Rate:253 L/H (400kpa-12V)

Looks to be a pretty large difference in injector and LPFP flow rate...

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Yeah, it would be nice to know if he's still mixing.

However, 1.5 gallons put it right at the 15% threshold.

That is only assuming the tank was full. Since the OP has yet to contribute we do not know. I would hazard to guess that the tank was not full. Hence, we have greater fueling issues.

SHOddded, you are 110% correct about keeping it above board. That is why we are asking posting to do two things:

A, BE HELPFUL
B, Keep the 2 topics that have been posted about separate. The XSport and the SHO are 2 different vehicles that are experiencing 2 different things.

The SHO is a fueling failure that is user created. I think that all of the posters using logic all agree there. Whereas the XSport has plugs that are at the end of their suggested lifespan. We recommend changing those plugs every around 15k miles. The black smoke at downshift when running highway speeds can be attributed to the same thing. The reasoning for siting the plugs as part of the problem (along with fueling) is the black smoke comes from...fuel. We have explained this to Mike (prior to this thread) that we recommend running V3 during the winter months. Version 4 for the XSport, just like V9 for the SHO, is as aggressive of a tune as we will release. This being the case, when you meet quirks with inferior fueling lower the tune. That does not require logging. That is fairly straightforward. To log and take away from the V4 or V9 tuning you are only encroaching upon making it V3 or V8 for the SHO. This being the case, why not run the proven tune? There were no issues with the tune. We get that it is hard to back off of the power fix, but we will always recommend what we know is proven and safe. We will never recommend anything that will hurt your vehicle.

 

[jbeez]

I have put over 36,000 miles since purchasing my car new back on 8/13 and have  drove through so many states and N.J for the most part has crap gas and no E-85 fuel and no Chevron gas stations,plainly 93 octane is not the same everywhere you go,so its important to choose the best octane available locally and use a well frequent,high turn around gas station,makes you wonder why many people experience poor mpg.  Z

twinsies! looool took delivery of my car aug of 2013 and its a 2014 SHO, I have about 32,300mi on it right now.   I'm in PA, right now I'm using either Shell or Sunoco 93, I wish Sunoco still sold 94

 

[ZSHO]

I have put over 36,000 miles since purchasing my car new back on 8/13 and have  drove through so many states and N.J for the most part has crap gas and no E-85 fuel and no Chevron gas stations,plainly 93 octane is not the same everywhere you go,so its important to choose the best octane available locally and use a well frequent,high turn around gas station,makes you wonder why many people experience poor mpg.  Z

twinsies! looool took delivery of my car aug of 2013 and its a 2014 SHO, I have about 32,300mi on it right now.   I'm in PA, right now I'm using either Shell or Sunoco 93, I wish Sunoco still sold 94

Thats funny,considering your car is stock hows she behaving with the winter blend fuel,any difference compared to the summer blend fuel? any issues of any kind? thanx  Z