Livernois Tune Madness on "Winter Blend"

[14SHOCAR]

The popping happened since I bought the tuner/plugs/t-stat. The 91 tune didn't fix the issue and a factory tune doesn't show a problem.

As per temperatures, my car is indoors and is 50+ degrees most of winter.

The issue only happens under WOT. If I am slightly off WOT, I don't get popping and the car runs great.

The popping happened well before my e85 experiments. I only ran it for about a week, and never mixed more than 1-2 gallons per 16 gallons of gas; yes, if I wasn't empty, I lowered the amount of e85 to keep a .125 blend. I did, however, see better gas efficiency (3-4 MPG) when I added it in, until what I assume, the fuel trims adjusted, where I got worse.

My next step is to replace the plugs with another shop that will gap the plugs correctly. The plugs I received from Livernois were not all .030 -- some were in the .0315 range. Shipping doesn't expand the gap....

Do any unleashed customers have ANY issues with ever with popping? I may just ditch livernois and move to unleashed -- At least Torrie is willing to work with his customers on datalogging and getting to the root of issues... instead of telling them to "change the plugs they provided",  "change the tune", "change the intake"...

I'm following through with their suggestions, but seriously... this is getting really old. OVER one year's worth of issues.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

That is odd you mentioned having this popping issue from day one of running our tune.  I've watched videos on your youtube channel that you have sent us showing the car has zero popping sounds.  Then you have a video about the popping sound afterwards that says "the change the vehicle was adding 1.5 gallons of e85 before a full tank of 93" which is where my original question came from back on page 1. 

Checking that plug you posted about having a hard time getting at and only tightened by hand would honestly be the very first thing to look into if it were me.  ZSHO pointed that out in a previous post and had a very good point.  I know with my personal vehicles (and this is just my opinion) , if I change a part and begin having an issues afterwards that could be possibly related, I would be under the hood of the car the moment I noticed any issues checking my work.  Especially if I installed something hand tight that should be installed to a precise torque spec.  Then maybe create a post asking for input after I had ruled out all possibilities. 

I have never personally told you we are not willing to review data logs in any way.  So by all means feel free to do so at your convenience and I would be glad to get them over to my head calibrator for further analysis.  We also have our previous version 7 tunes that was released prior to your v8 tunes, and our latest version 9 that is a more aggressive race oriented tune as well.  If interested in trying other versions of the tunes please send us a request to tuning@livernoismotorsports.com and we would be glad to help! 

 

[14SHOCAR]

April 1st, 2015 - I received the "MyCal" Device and submitted a tuning request.
April 2nd 2015 - I received the tune files.
April 7th, 2015 - Installed the plugs, t-stat, 3bar, and tune. Send an email to Livernois and reported that my shifts were too hard to go to WOT.
April 22nd, 2015 - Installed the intake and ran dyno runs.
May 11th, 2015 - Had the downpipes and catback exhaust installed. Tried to get the updated tuner files, and received an error message "Updates required to load tune file".
May 12th, 2015 - Reported to Livernois that I was having sputter and a loss of power at WOT. I also sent them a video....Livernois told me to try the 91 Tune.  http://youtu.be/1R9hZfDm1w4

May 13th, 2015 - I told Livernois that the sputter is worse with the 91 tune and I went back to the 93 octane.
May 18th, 2015 - Received another tune update from Livernois. Tried to flash and got an error message "An Error has occurred. Please write down the following error message then call tech support. 7e"
May 19th, 2015 - Received ANOTHER tune update from livernois to try to get the tuner to work properly.
May 20th, 2015 - Removed the catless downpipes and updated the tune without the O2 delete. The tune would not take in my car and after multiple attempts, I was able to get the car back to stock. Determined that the tuner was bad. Livernois sent a replacement tuner unit.
June 19th, 2015 - Reported sputtering at idle. (no response)
June 19th, 2015 - Recorded video of my exhaust popping at WOT (I didn't post the video until October (but was recorded part of Rasp from hell part 2 series) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQLhUO-8NiA
June 25th, 2015 - Reported sputtering at idle again and mentioned that I could have someone data log for me.
June 25th, 2015 - Livernois responded stating exactly: "You can send us the data logs if you would like.  Primarily data logging is used for wide open throttle situations so I cannot say that it would show us much."

... after 3 months of back and forth I dropped the subject..

Then in October I was getting frustrated with my sputter again and I posted a video of the sputtering. I've received about 10 different comments on a variety of my videos about similar issues...

You get my point....

And yes, I still have sputter. And yes it only happens at WOT. And yes, Livernois even said in an email "Primarily data logging is used for wide open throttle situations".

I'm sorry that you feel that I'm not following your instructions. I'm going to change the plugs and move forward from there.

 

[BlueSHO]

Very good log of events there..

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

 

[black99lightning]

have you gotten them to send you V7?  I was having issues with V4 for the Xsport and requested V3 back, and my car is running great again.

 

[14SHOCAR]

have you gotten them to send you V7?  I was having issues with V4 for the Xsport and requested V3 back, and my car is running great again.

One thing at a time... I don't want to change too many things, as I won't be able to get to the root of my issue. I am open to V7, just want to do the plugs first.... so if the V7 doesn't work, they don't blame the plugs.

 

[ajpturbo]

I feel your pain...usually im unsympathetic but that sounds frustrating.....out of curiosity with what are you datalogging with?...i dont understand how that works with lms and mycal

 

[ajpturbo]

I log around 30 PID's when I log. I don't see how you can do that without SCT. And to be thorough when trying to diagnose something I would log as much as possible.

I would be interested in STFT's, measured AFR,  Actual throttle angle, Fuel pressure at the rail, Misfire count, Knock senor, TIP and MAP pressure, in addition to normal things like RPM, Coolant temp, gear, IAT's, vehicle speed and spark and cam timing intake actul..

Popping can't be good and means something. I doubt the higer E would be a problem but the more you have the more your stft's and ltft's would read.

AJPTURBO

Sorry for the late response on this post

This shows your inexperience with engines an fuel. E85 will most definitely cause popping with these cars (IF OUT OF FUEL). The car is on the verge of being out of fuel pressure and lean on e10 gasoline. Please don't advise people with inaccurate advice. This kind of stuff causes major problems with the fuel system and engine. I wish people would advise the correct information. The winter is here an temperatures are colder which results in substantially more fuel required (especially with E85).

You seem to know very little about datalogging, a pid is no where near the data you need to be looking at with "said" companies data log. It is for diagnostic data for repair shops. Not for development.

Can we confirm the actual fuel in the car?

We don't have people complaining with these cars about drivability issues since initial release in 2013. I think we are on to something with the fuel. We are committed to finding the problem out. If we need to we will make a trip to the customer an find out the problem. This is a car problem not a tuning problem.

We stand behind our customers

LME

Please educate the community with "good information" not opinion.

Its ok I apologize for the late reply also.

Again im not sure why i waste time explaining things to a salesman...you know enough about tuning to get into trouble and confuse others on a message board...my information about tuning comes from facts not opinion.

There is a good chance ive done more datalogging on this platform than most....some of that i wont lie may be contributed to me being a non professional...ive probably flashed my ecu with close to 1000 tune revisions and done that many datalogs as well...ive experimented with many combinations of switches and settings to achieve the desired results that i have yet to see any tuner achieve and some things that other tuners said weren't even possible...tuning companies work on multiple platforms ive been working solely on this for almost 2 years about every other night and sometimes every night for weeks at a time.

Tell me again why pids arent good for tuning? They are direct sensor readings..i get all the pertinent information i need from them..sampling rate is high and they are not derived from formulas as in some of the other logging platforms which i admit i dont know much about.such as torque and dash command...i use sct live link gen 2

At the modest boost that ive seen from your tunes the fuel system is far from maxed out, especially at rpms above 4k which is where most of the wot is done...so some extra ethanol at lms boost levels do not have the fuel system maxed out...plenty of people unleashed or lms have been running a splash or more of E from what i see in peoples sigs.

Ive ran 13-15 psi below 3k rpms fuel pressure drops but is still around 1000 psi and afr is achieving commanded...20 psi boost and fuel pressure is over 1500 psi above 4500 rpm...so again no problems there...yes higher E will lower fuel pressure but since no customer of yours runs 20 psi there should be no problem with E20.

From what ive seen of lms tunes the throttle blade never opens fully...im not sure why that would be intentional and im not sure that it is intentional but the turbo will have to work harder to achieve a certain boost pressure to overcome the obstruction that is the throttle blade and volumetric efficiency will suffer due to the wastegate being held closed longer and this will cause more back pressure which is what lowers VE and fuel demands will be increased which will also hurt fuel pressure in the rail.....which could lead you to think the fuel system is maxxed out even at lower boost levels that lms tunes will run

I regularly run 16 or more psi at temps below 20 degrees and have yet to have a problem and i have a saftey cusion im not on the ragged edge as far as im concerned....ive seen a few lms 3bar tunes logs and i see 13-15 psi so it seems odd to me why they have to resort to a 3 bar map sensor...the stock map sensor is limited to 206 kpa or 15.16 psi at 4.8 volts...so its on the edge...this is all derived from pids

 

[14SHOCAR]

I feel your pain...usually im unsympathetic but that sounds frustrating.....out of curiosity with what are you datalogging with?...i dont understand how that works with lms and mycal

Late model throttle said they would data log with their Diablo device. It would have cost me $$ to do it each time.

 

[ajpturbo]

Ive always thought that if i was in the tuning business and i was unable to come to a resolution with a customer, instead of being bull headed and refusing to believe there is something wrong with the tune for a particular car just return to stock send the tuner back and refund the customer...no harm no foul.

I wouldnt want to spend my time troubleshooting for months...maybe the customer is wrong...maybe he isnt...i would say i dont want you as a customer and i dont want you to be dissatisfied so lets part ways mutually....ill take the tuner amd you take your money lol

Whats keeping you from switching at this point anyway?

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I log around 30 PID's when I log. I don't see how you can do that without SCT. And to be thorough when trying to diagnose something I would log as much as possible.

I would be interested in STFT's, measured AFR,  Actual throttle angle, Fuel pressure at the rail, Misfire count, Knock senor, TIP and MAP pressure, in addition to normal things like RPM, Coolant temp, gear, IAT's, vehicle speed and spark and cam timing intake actul..

Popping can't be good and means something. I doubt the higer E would be a problem but the more you have the more your stft's and ltft's would read.

AJPTURBO

Sorry for the late response on this post

This shows your inexperience with engines an fuel. E85 will most definitely cause popping with these cars (IF OUT OF FUEL). The car is on the verge of being out of fuel pressure and lean on e10 gasoline. Please don't advise people with inaccurate advice. This kind of stuff causes major problems with the fuel system and engine. I wish people would advise the correct information. The winter is here an temperatures are colder which results in substantially more fuel required (especially with E85).

You seem to know very little about datalogging, a pid is no where near the data you need to be looking at with "said" companies data log. It is for diagnostic data for repair shops. Not for development.

Can we confirm the actual fuel in the car?

We don't have people complaining with these cars about drivability issues since initial release in 2013. I think we are on to something with the fuel. We are committed to finding the problem out. If we need to we will make a trip to the customer an find out the problem. This is a car problem not a tuning problem.

We stand behind our customers

LME

Please educate the community with "good information" not opinion.

Its ok I apologize for the late reply also.

Again im not sure why i waste time explaining things to a salesman...you know enough about tuning to get into trouble and confuse others on a message board...my information about tuning comes from facts not opinion.

There is a good chance ive done more datalogging on this platform than most....some of that i wont lie may be contributed to me being a non professional...ive probably flashed my ecu with close to 1000 tune revisions and done that many datalogs as well...ive experimented with many combinations of switches and settings to achieve the desired results that i have yet to see any tuner achieve and some things that other tuners said weren't even possible...tuning companies work on multiple platforms ive been working solely on this for almost 2 years about every other night and sometimes every night for weeks at a time.

Tell me again why pids arent good for tuning? They are direct sensor readings..i get all the pertinent information i need from them..sampling rate is high and they are not derived from formulas as in some of the other logging platforms which i admit i dont know much about.such as torque and dash command...i use sct live link gen 2

At the modest boost that ive seen from your tunes the fuel system is far from maxed out, especially at rpms above 4k which is where most of the wot is done...so some extra ethanol at lms boost levels do not have the fuel system maxed out...plenty of people unleashed or lms have been running a splash or more of E from what i see in peoples sigs.

Ive ran 13-15 psi below 3k rpms fuel pressure drops but is still around 1000 psi and afr is achieving commanded...20 psi boost and fuel pressure is over 1500 psi above 4500 rpm...so again no problems there...yes higher E will lower fuel pressure but since no customer of yours runs 20 psi there should be no problem with E20.

From what ive seen of lms tunes the throttle blade never opens fully...im not sure why that would be intentional and im not sure that it is intentional but the turbo will have to work harder to achieve a certain boost pressure to overcome the obstruction that is the throttle blade and volumetric efficiency will suffer due to the wastegate being held closed longer and this will cause more back pressure which is what lowers VE and fuel demands will be increased which will also hurt fuel pressure in the rail.....which could lead you to think the fuel system is maxxed out even at lower boost levels that lms tunes will run

I regularly run 16 or more psi at temps below 20 degrees and have yet to have a problem and i have a saftey cusion im not on the ragged edge as far as im concerned....ive seen a few lms 3bar tunes logs and i see 13-15 psi so it seems odd to me why they have to resort to a 3 bar map sensor...the stock map sensor is limited to 206 kpa or 15.16 psi at 4.8 volts...so its on the edge...this is all derived from pids

Ironically, you are not explaining anything to a salesman, as this is the calibrator providing you with edification.

There are most definitely substantial differences between those PIDS and the actual addresses of where those logged parameters are housed, and that parameter set in particular. While you likely don't care about the over 4k rpm, because you will experience fewer problems. The issues will be far more noticeable under that 4k rpm band. That high pressure fuel pump spins at half of the revolutions at 3k rpm than it does at 6k. So the popping I will bet is happening while it is coming up on boost, and w/E85 this will likely happen all throughout the rpm band.

Again, your "calculations" are incorrect. To ACCURATELY calculate a kilopascal value to the corresponding value in bar, just multiply the quantity in kPa by 0.01 (the conversion factor).

Here is the formula:
Value in bar = value in kPa * 0.01
Suppose you want to convert 200 kPa into bar. In this case you will have:

Value in bar = 200 * 0.01 = 2.06BAR
But, who's counting?

Since you are so confident that you are superior in everything tuning please come teach us. We have offered that opportunity hundreds of times before you, and just like our tuning track record...this track record too is SPOTLESS. I will offer a trip here to Dearborn Heights, Mi and allow us to teach you about tuning and the EcoBoost platform. We will put you in several different EcoBoost Vehicles and show you where, how, when and why the cars fun out of fueling. Since you apparently are the foremost expert on all things tuning, IF you can prove us wrong we will GLADLY cut you a check ON THE SPOT to pay for your flight, room and board.

While we are fully aware of how to keep the throttle open to avoid these things from occurring, there are many valid reasons that it intermittently shuts. It can be:
Out of fuel
Over/under boost
and several other self-preserving reasons.

We've been there, and done that...back in 2009. It is now 2016! All of your banter just goes to show that you are not a calibration writer.

 

[SHOnUup]

Where is the moderation...

You admins of this page should be ashamed...let some chump member on here basically bash the only company left participating on here...

If I was Livernois, I'd ditch this site...they come on here and get no help from the admins to keep the idiots at bay obviously.

Ridiculous and shows the true colors of the administration and ownership of this forum to me.



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[SHOdded]

Thanks, Rich, appreciate the kind words   Name calling, especially against fellow forum members, isn't allowed by ANYONE.  When they do, they are reprimanded with what tools we have at our disposal.

We let this thread continue because we honestly thought a tete-a-tete would help enlighten interested members regarding the inner workings & controls of the EB platform.  AFAIK, Livernois is saying what they can without divulging trade secrets, but if you don't ask, you won't know.  Simple as that.  As repeatedly stated by us before, if a vendor gets to that point, let them say so, and that'd be fine.  We all understand the need for trade secrets.  But at the same time, we do not support squashing of efforts to reverse engineer products.  Is it OK that we try to do things to Ford products, but not ok if we try to do the very same things with aftermarket products?  If anything, it speaks to Livernois' capabilities that people want to figure out what/why they are doing ...

 

[SHOnUup]

Like you've said yourself..."you should do more moderating"...and until that happens my statement is nothing but the truth.

There's many ways of getting an answer, but the button pushing, condescending remarks, and basic disrespectful nature of some posts should be moderated if you'd like to keep a look of "even & balanced"...

But, that's obviously not a concern...



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[ZSHO]

I totally agree SHOnUup,this THREAD should be LOCKED IMHO.  Z

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Thanks, Rich, appreciate the kind words   Name calling, especially against fellow forum members, isn't allowed by ANYONE.  When they do, they are reprimanded with what tools we have at our disposal.

We let this thread continue because we honestly thought a tete-a-tete would help enlighten interested members regarding the inner workings & controls of the EB platform.  AFAIK, Livernois is saying what they can without divulging trade secrets, but if you don't ask, you won't know.  Simple as that.  As repeatedly stated by us before, if a vendor gets to that point, let them say so, and that'd be fine.  We all understand the need for trade secrets.  But at the same time, we do not support squashing of efforts to reverse engineer products.  Is it OK that we try to do things to Ford products, but not ok if we try to do the very same things with aftermarket products?  If anything, it speaks to Livernois' capabilities that people want to figure out what/why they are doing ...

You make some awesome points SHOd, and we appreciate you chiming in. The fact that the entire platform is out of fueling is not a trade secret for us. They are almost out of fuel on pump E10, so by adding E85 you will only meet those limitations 30-40% sooner. That is due to the delta in volume between the two fuels. We are here to help/educate the entire community, but when we are met with inaccurate arguments we cannot assist. Everything that we spread is based in over 8 years of testing and development. Do you see another way that we attempt to help the community? We are, as always, open to suggestions.

 

[SHOdded]

There will never be such a thing as even and balanced, Rich, everyone's point of view is different.  That's the way the world works, for better or worse.  Do things one way, a particular group will salute you, do it another way, the same people will spit on you.

The fact remains, we are using a medium of communication that is quite anonymous by nature.  If you choose to meet outside the classroom, get to know each other, more power to you, and very commendable.  After all, the spirit of camaraderie is quite welcome.  But most of us do not have that luxury.  Maybe the same person who you consider your opponent in a forum would be a good friend in real life.  But that is your choice to make.  We can't make it for you.  I personally give people a LOT of leeway, but that doesn't mean I don't have opinions about what you guys say & do, just like everyone else.

If you want to take me to school, shame me, if that makes you feel better, go right ahead.  I've had to listen to s*** all my life because I don't care to take sides, but I will speak up when it's time.  You will be the n+1 in that crowd.  But I refuse to take it out on other people, especially in public.

14SHOCAR, AJ, Livernois (I don't know who's repping because there's no signature on the posts), do you want me to lock the thread as ZSHO has suggested, or do you all want to voluntarily withdraw from public discussion on this thread?  Use the phone, PM, whatever.  Please let me know.  Thank you.

 

[SHOdded]

You make some awesome points SHOd, and we appreciate you chiming in. The fact that the entire platform is out of fueling is not a trade secret for us. They are almost out of fuel on pump E10, so by adding E85 you will only meet those limitations 30-40% sooner. That is due to the delta in volume between the two fuels. We are here to help/educate the entire community, but when we are met with inaccurate arguments we cannot assist. Everything that we spread is based in over 8 years of testing and development. Do you see another way that we attempt to help the community? We are, as always, open to suggestions.

I understand you are doing what you can, saying what you can.  And certainly, there will be times when facts will still not persuade people to come around.  I think your offer to AJ to come out and have a discussion with you is quite fair, if not more so.  As long as you take feedback, and turn that into a better product, that is all anyone can ask for of any company, and I appreciate that.  Everybody wants things now, answers now, and sometimes it's just not possible or practical ...

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

To put the whole "popping" discussion to rest:

The following was on October 6th, 2015.

...I think it was my car adjusting to the new gas. The car was 100% 93 octane when I went back to the E85 Mixture. I've been spacing out the e85 mixtures every couple of tanks so I can get a "true mix". I still had gas in the tank so it was 1.5 (E85) to 15.5 (93). It was only during WOT between 2nd and 3rd that it was starting to lose power, which I assume the "popping" is the car opening the waste gates (not misfires, though it could be). It was doing a similar thing when I had the cat-less downpipes on.

The car didn't have the WOT pop before I put in the e85 mixture. I am almost always at WOT in my car -- it's how I drive. The car was stable until I made the new mix. The 1.0(e85) to 15.5 (e85) mixture was stable and didn't have any popping.. it was only after I added that additional half gallon that the car started  to pop.

My car has now adjusted to the new mix and I don't get popping anymore with the new mixture.

It raises the question -- if you make the change, do you need to keep the mix for the LOR and curves to remain consistent?

Stated above clearly,"...the car didn't have the WOT pop before I put in the e85 mixture...". This proves that the issues did not start until after the addition of E85. There are years of experience behind our recommendations. These vehicles are not made for alternative fuels. If we were talking about actual race applications then things like E85, auxiliary fueling systems and nitrous would be right at home. These types of mods are right at home in an application that will see limited street time, or not need to have the same level of composure or manners that we have come to expect from a modern luxury family sport sedan.

 

[SHOdded]

Good find.