Meth injection w/ wastegate mod?

[8nutz8]

In my pipe dreams of meth use the TB spacer was always my preferred method of delivery for 2 reasons:
1)you don't have to hack up your stock intake pipe.
2) I'm adamant about keeping my wastegate boost regulator in use and would thus need a nozzle location post wastegate/noisemaker location so when the gate opens on a boost spike meth doesn't bleed out with it.
but with DDlopes recent thread proving the TB spacer doesn't provide an even enough flow of distribution/atomization that idea is probably toast.
That almost means that a guy can't run meth w/ the wastegate mod as any location after the wastegate won't give you good enough distribution.
Does that sound right?

Alternate question would be . . . would the amount of meth escaping the wastegate in an open condition cause problems?
or would enough meth remain in the charge to keep it's cooling properties?

Not really leaning on meth for my next performance mod but figured i'd open up the discussion.

Please share your thoughts

 

[StealBlueSHO]

I wouldn't chance it... honestly... if it's hot enough the meth could ignite if being misted out of the wastegate... clear balls of fire...

Now the other question comes to mind... why do both? The WG mod was to address fuel pressure issues which methanol resolves as well. I have datalogs with 22.5psi boost spikes with meth and perfect rail pressure... with WOT..


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[8nutz8]

I wouldn't chance it... honestly... if it's hot enough the meth could ignite if being misted out of the wastegate... clear balls of fire...

Now the other question comes to mind... why do both? The WG mod was to address fuel pressure issues which methanol resolves as well. I have datalogs with 22.5psi boost spikes with meth and perfect rail pressure... with WOT..


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Good call on the meth reaching a flash point.
I knew someone would ask that question and to be honest i don't have a clear cut answer for why i want to keep the wastegate. I know the meth would address the fueling issue. I guess in my head it just makes too much sense to regulate boost close to what you're commanding.
SBS i know your timing is very high but doesn't spark drop when you get load spikes still?
also, does your WGDC climb higher than normal during your boost spike? Or do they actually drop since the TIP DSD is being exceeded already.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

I wouldn't chance it... honestly... if it's hot enough the meth could ignite if being misted out of the wastegate... clear balls of fire...

Now the other question comes to mind... why do both? The WG mod was to address fuel pressure issues which methanol resolves as well. I have datalogs with 22.5psi boost spikes with meth and perfect rail pressure... with WOT..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good call on the meth reaching a flash point.
I knew someone would ask that question and to be honest i don't have a clear cut answer for why i want to keep the wastegate. I know the meth would address the fueling issue. I guess in my head it just makes too much sense to regulate boost close to what you're commanding.
SBS i know your timing is very high but doesn't spark drop when you get load spikes still?
also, does your WGDC climb higher than normal during your boost spike? Or do they actually drop since the TIP DSD is being exceeded already.

The correlation between load spikes and spark drop is due to shifting. Ford uses built into logic to reduce spark at shift to ease the load on the transmission. It's not only expected but helps with the shifts... additionally you don't want to have a big boost spike with high timing.. that causes knock in a bad way since your fuel system is already taxed at that point...

During my boost spike my WGDC drops. My WGDC climbs a bit as the RPMs rise but that is also expected. When the RPMs rise so does the transfer of air into and out of the engine, to maintain the demanded amount of boost you need divert more exhaust through the turbines of the turbo to produce more pressure... thus the WGDC climbs to achieve this. At least, in a simplistic way. When the shift happens at the peak of the RPMs you get a boost spike as all the excess boost is pushed into the system during the gear shift since it's not vented. The WGDC drops as this point to adjust for the excess boost but then climbs again as your RPMs increase after the shift...

The WG mod complicates this because once the WG spring compresses and opens the WG you are creating a boost leak to bleed off that excess as opposed to it being digested by the engine... so the turbos need to work harder temporarily to keep the demanded boost... which in turn pushes more hot air into the system...

Hope that makes sense?

I am sure Brad can give a much more technical explanation...


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[8nutz8]

I wouldn't chance it... honestly... if it's hot enough the meth could ignite if being misted out of the wastegate... clear balls of fire...

Now the other question comes to mind... why do both? The WG mod was to address fuel pressure issues which methanol resolves as well. I have datalogs with 22.5psi boost spikes with meth and perfect rail pressure... with WOT..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good call on the meth reaching a flash point.
I knew someone would ask that question and to be honest i don't have a clear cut answer for why i want to keep the wastegate. I know the meth would address the fueling issue. I guess in my head it just makes too much sense to regulate boost close to what you're commanding.
SBS i know your timing is very high but doesn't spark drop when you get load spikes still?
also, does your WGDC climb higher than normal during your boost spike? Or do they actually drop since the TIP DSD is being exceeded already.

The correlation between load spikes and spark drop is due to shifting. Ford uses built into logic to reduce spark at shift to ease the load on the transmission. It's not only expected but helps with the shifts... additionally you don't want to have a big boost spike with high timing.. that causes knock in a bad way since your fuel system is already taxed at that point...

During my boost spike my WGDC drops. My WGDC climbs a bit as the RPMs rise but that is also expected. When the RPMs rise so does the transfer of air into and out of the engine, to maintain the demanded amount of boost you need divert more exhaust through the turbines of the turbo to produce more pressure... thus the WGDC climbs to achieve this. At least, in a simplistic way. When the shift happens at the peak of the RPMs you get a boost spike as all the excess boost is pushed into the system during the gear shift since it's not vented. The WGDC drops as this point to adjust for the excess boost but then climbs again as your RPMs increase after the shift...

The WG mod complicates this because once the WG spring compresses and opens the WG you are creating a boost leak to bleed off that excess as opposed to it being digested by the engine... so the turbos need to work harder temporarily to keep the demanded boost... which in turn pushes more hot air into the system...

Hope that makes sense?

I am sure Brad can give a much more technical explanation...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SBS- all that you stated i very well understand. WGDC, rpm the wastegate mods effect etc.
As far as your first sentence in reply . .  I'm not referring to the drop in spark during the shift(torque source 7-torque management). I guess i'm more wondering how much your spark drops after the shift when your riding out the boost spike.(going to look at your track logs after posting this).
But here's the scenario i'm playing out:
On a meth equipped SHO w/out wastegate- say you're getting 28* spark throughout the rpm band @1.5-1.6 load range then you come to the 2-3 shift(when spike is the greatest) and your then you spike to 1.7-1.8 load range and the ECU pulls 5* of timing due to the increased load.
VS
a meth equipped SHO w/ wastegate mod in the same setting wouldn't  have quite an increase in load on the shift and would keep timing more consistent.

 

[8nutz8]

Just looked at one of your track logs.
~28* @ 1.6-1.7 load then on the 2-3 shift load rises to 1.9 peak and you drop to 24* timing(also using throttle to control the boost spike though)
That's really not a terrible loss of spark but it still is closing the throttle a bit.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

I wouldn't chance it... honestly... if it's hot enough the meth could ignite if being misted out of the wastegate... clear balls of fire...

Now the other question comes to mind... why do both? The WG mod was to address fuel pressure issues which methanol resolves as well. I have datalogs with 22.5psi boost spikes with meth and perfect rail pressure... with WOT..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good call on the meth reaching a flash point.
I knew someone would ask that question and to be honest i don't have a clear cut answer for why i want to keep the wastegate. I know the meth would address the fueling issue. I guess in my head it just makes too much sense to regulate boost close to what you're commanding.
SBS i know your timing is very high but doesn't spark drop when you get load spikes still?
also, does your WGDC climb higher than normal during your boost spike? Or do they actually drop since the TIP DSD is being exceeded already.

The correlation between load spikes and spark drop is due to shifting. Ford uses built into logic to reduce spark at shift to ease the load on the transmission. It's not only expected but helps with the shifts... additionally you don't want to have a big boost spike with high timing.. that causes knock in a bad way since your fuel system is already taxed at that point...

During my boost spike my WGDC drops. My WGDC climbs a bit as the RPMs rise but that is also expected. When the RPMs rise so does the transfer of air into and out of the engine, to maintain the demanded amount of boost you need divert more exhaust through the turbines of the turbo to produce more pressure... thus the WGDC climbs to achieve this. At least, in a simplistic way. When the shift happens at the peak of the RPMs you get a boost spike as all the excess boost is pushed into the system during the gear shift since it's not vented. The WGDC drops as this point to adjust for the excess boost but then climbs again as your RPMs increase after the shift...

The WG mod complicates this because once the WG spring compresses and opens the WG you are creating a boost leak to bleed off that excess as opposed to it being digested by the engine... so the turbos need to work harder temporarily to keep the demanded boost... which in turn pushes more hot air into the system...

Hope that makes sense?

I am sure Brad can give a much more technical explanation...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SBS- all that you stated i very well understand. WGDC, rpm the wastegate mods effect etc.
As far as your first sentence in reply . .  I'm not referring to the drop in spark during the shift(torque source 7-torque management). I guess i'm more wondering how much your spark drops after the shift when your riding out the boost spike.(going to look at your track logs after posting this).
But here's the scenario i'm playing out:
On a meth equipped SHO w/out wastegate- say you're getting 28* spark throughout the rpm band @1.5-1.6 load range then you come to the 2-3 shift(when spike is the greatest) and your then you spike to 1.7-1.8 load range and the ECU pulls 5* of timing due to the increased load.
VS
a meth equipped SHO w/ wastegate mod in the same setting wouldn't  have quite an increase in load on the shift and would keep timing more consistent.

Hmmm... that's all in the tuning really. I know that on the 2-3 gear shift your IATs are starting building up without meth which will directly effect your spark..


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[StealBlueSHO]

Just looked at one of your track logs.
~28* @ 1.6-1.7 load then on the 2-3 shift load rises to 1.9 peak and you drop to 24* timing(also using throttle to control the boost spike though)
That's really not a terrible loss of spark but it still is closing the throttle a bit.

Correct, I asked Brad to put the throttle control back in because I was breaking the tires loose at the 30ft mark or so (4400 rpms) riding out the boost the spikes.... with that amount of timing and boost the throttle control helps with traction... without needing drag radials...




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[FoMoCoSHO]

I wouldn't chance it... honestly... if it's hot enough the meth could ignite if being misted out of the wastegate... clear balls of fire...

Now the other question comes to mind... why do both? The WG mod was to address fuel pressure issues which methanol resolves as well. I have datalogs with 22.5psi boost spikes with meth and perfect rail pressure... with WOT..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good call on the meth reaching a flash point.
I knew someone would ask that question and to be honest i don't have a clear cut answer for why i want to keep the wastegate. I know the meth would address the fueling issue. I guess in my head it just makes too much sense to regulate boost close to what you're commanding.
SBS i know your timing is very high but doesn't spark drop when you get load spikes still?
also, does your WGDC climb higher than normal during your boost spike? Or do they actually drop since the TIP DSD is being exceeded already.

The correlation between load spikes and spark drop is due to shifting. Ford uses built into logic to reduce spark at shift to ease the load on the transmission. It's not only expected but helps with the shifts... additionally you don't want to have a big boost spike with high timing.. that causes knock in a bad way since your fuel system is already taxed at that point...

During my boost spike my WGDC drops. My WGDC climbs a bit as the RPMs rise but that is also expected. When the RPMs rise so does the transfer of air into and out of the engine, to maintain the demanded amount of boost you need divert more exhaust through the turbines of the turbo to produce more pressure... thus the WGDC climbs to achieve this. At least, in a simplistic way. When the shift happens at the peak of the RPMs you get a boost spike as all the excess boost is pushed into the system during the gear shift since it's not vented. The WGDC drops as this point to adjust for the excess boost but then climbs again as your RPMs increase after the shift...

The WG mod complicates this because once the WG spring compresses and opens the WG you are creating a boost leak to bleed off that excess as opposed to it being digested by the engine... so the turbos need to work harder temporarily to keep the demanded boost... which in turn pushes more hot air into the system...

Hope that makes sense?

I am sure Brad can give a much more technical explanation...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SBS- all that you stated i very well understand. WGDC, rpm the wastegate mods effect etc.
As far as your first sentence in reply . .  I'm not referring to the drop in spark during the shift(torque source 7-torque management). I guess i'm more wondering how much your spark drops after the shift when your riding out the boost spike.(going to look at your track logs after posting this).
But here's the scenario i'm playing out:
On a meth equipped SHO w/out wastegate- say you're getting 28* spark throughout the rpm band @1.5-1.6 load range then you come to the 2-3 shift(when spike is the greatest) and your then you spike to 1.7-1.8 load range and the ECU pulls 5* of timing due to the increased load.
VS
a meth equipped SHO w/ wastegate mod in the same setting wouldn't  have quite an increase in load on the shift and would keep timing more consistent.

Hmmm... that's all in the tuning really. I know that on the 2-3 gear shift your IATs are starting building up without meth which will directly effect your spark..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Unless you run the corn....no compensation for me until 140

 

[8nutz8]

I wouldn't chance it... honestly... if it's hot enough the meth could ignite if being misted out of the wastegate... clear balls of fire...

Now the other question comes to mind... why do both? The WG mod was to address fuel pressure issues which methanol resolves as well. I have datalogs with 22.5psi boost spikes with meth and perfect rail pressure... with WOT..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good call on the meth reaching a flash point.
I knew someone would ask that question and to be honest i don't have a clear cut answer for why i want to keep the wastegate. I know the meth would address the fueling issue. I guess in my head it just makes too much sense to regulate boost close to what you're commanding.
SBS i know your timing is very high but doesn't spark drop when you get load spikes still?
also, does your WGDC climb higher than normal during your boost spike? Or do they actually drop since the TIP DSD is being exceeded already.

The correlation between load spikes and spark drop is due to shifting. Ford uses built into logic to reduce spark at shift to ease the load on the transmission. It's not only expected but helps with the shifts... additionally you don't want to have a big boost spike with high timing.. that causes knock in a bad way since your fuel system is already taxed at that point...

During my boost spike my WGDC drops. My WGDC climbs a bit as the RPMs rise but that is also expected. When the RPMs rise so does the transfer of air into and out of the engine, to maintain the demanded amount of boost you need divert more exhaust through the turbines of the turbo to produce more pressure... thus the WGDC climbs to achieve this. At least, in a simplistic way. When the shift happens at the peak of the RPMs you get a boost spike as all the excess boost is pushed into the system during the gear shift since it's not vented. The WGDC drops as this point to adjust for the excess boost but then climbs again as your RPMs increase after the shift...

The WG mod complicates this because once the WG spring compresses and opens the WG you are creating a boost leak to bleed off that excess as opposed to it being digested by the engine... so the turbos need to work harder temporarily to keep the demanded boost... which in turn pushes more hot air into the system...

Hope that makes sense?

I am sure Brad can give a much more technical explanation...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SBS- all that you stated i very well understand. WGDC, rpm the wastegate mods effect etc.
As far as your first sentence in reply . .  I'm not referring to the drop in spark during the shift(torque source 7-torque management). I guess i'm more wondering how much your spark drops after the shift when your riding out the boost spike.(going to look at your track logs after posting this).
But here's the scenario i'm playing out:
On a meth equipped SHO w/out wastegate- say you're getting 28* spark throughout the rpm band @1.5-1.6 load range then you come to the 2-3 shift(when spike is the greatest) and your then you spike to 1.7-1.8 load range and the ECU pulls 5* of timing due to the increased load.
VS
a meth equipped SHO w/ wastegate mod in the same setting wouldn't  have quite an increase in load on the shift and would keep timing more consistent.

Hmmm... that's all in the tuning really. I know that on the 2-3 gear shift your IATs are starting building up without meth which will directly effect your spark..


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Unless you run the corn....no compensation for me until 140

i asked brad to make me an E30 tune specifically to dial back how much IAT pulls spark . . he told me he would rather leave the IAT tables alone but loosen up the knock sensors to add timing back in more quickly when they see negative values.
safe approach and is working just fine, getting 23-25* average and 19-21 when the load spikes.
guess that's the advantage of an E45 tune tho . . you can just count on not needing to pull spark based on IAT.


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[ajpturbo]

The WG mod complicates this because once the WG spring compresses and opens the WG you are creating a boost leak to bleed off that excess as opposed to it being digested by the engine... so the turbos need to work harder temporarily to keep the demanded boost... which in turn pushes more hot air into the system...

I don't really like this statement. SBS I think you are over cooking it...You are only creating a boost leak for the boost that the ECU never wanted or the engine needed.

You need X wastegate duty cycle for Y boost.

If the WGDC needs to be 70% for 15 psi but your boost spikes to 19 psi you will see the wgdc drop because you are over boosting..The more severe the boost spike the more the wgdc will drop because it's a P&I system. Proportionate and Integral. The greater the error in boost the more correction that gets applied to the wgdc.

If you only boost spike to 16 psi because you have a wastegate mod then you should still be near that 70% wgdc...If your actual boost is higher than desired boost then there is no reason wgdc will be any higher than what it would be for the desired boost level...But it would look higher when you compare it to what it would be if your boost spiked badly

And the reason for the boost spikes are simple: picture this. Your turbos are making say 40lbs/min of air at 6000rpm and that's what the engine is ingesting and the turbo is spinning at 80,000 rpm. Now you upshift and the rpm's drop to 4500, the turbos don't slow down instantly so they continue to shove 40lbs/min of airflow to the engine but at 4500rpm the engine won't eat that much airflow; boost builds until RPM's climb and or the turbos slow down from the gates in the turbos open..And actually both are happening so you only see the spike briefly.

And when load spikes and spark drops, I wouldn't really call that spark being pulled but rather it's just following a schedule. Spark follows load based on RPM.

When the knock sensors ask for a reduction in spark that is pulling spark to me and that on top of the schedule...Low spark from high load isn't really a bad thing it's just the way it has to be.....If it was bad then any amount of boost would be bad because it required less spark.

Normally a naturally aspirated car or even the SHO at 100kpa MAP spark is usually in the low to mid 30's

 

[lamrith]

Maybe move the WG mod farther upstream?  Most people mount it after the last bend, right about where the factory noisemaker is.  What if it was below the bend down behind the radiator/HE and then the nozzle was left up right before the TB blade where most people mount it?

 

[dubcitySHO]

Maybe move the WG mod farther upstream?

This was my first thought as well, but keep thinking, would the pressure differential from the WG opening change the intake air velocity and have funky effects on the atomization/flow of the meth?

 

[8nutz8]

Maybe move the WG mod farther upstream?  Most people mount it after the last bend, right about where the factory noisemaker is.  What if it was below the bend down behind the radiator/HE and then the nozzle was left up right before the TB blade where most people mount it?

yeah i think some sort of re-arrangement of the wastegate would be required if you wanted to run it with meth. You'd basically be looking at a custom hot pipe piece from CAC to TB to do that. Not necessarily a bad thing but adds to the cost of the whole meth setup.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

The WG mod complicates this because once the WG spring compresses and opens the WG you are creating a boost leak to bleed off that excess as opposed to it being digested by the engine... so the turbos need to work harder temporarily to keep the demanded boost... which in turn pushes more hot air into the system...

"I don't really like this statement. SBS I think you are over cooking it...You are only creating a boost leak for the boost that the ECU never wanted..."

I probably am... but in third gear at least on mine the wastegate would hang open for a bit longer than the boost spike would run...it's a mechanical solution with tolerances.. it's not 0 and 1s.

I think it's a great mod as I have stated countless times over and over. I invested in it once, sold everything off cause I was selling the car, but ended up keeping the car. Just chose to go a different route.

I still spraying meth with this mod doesn't help. The mod was designed if I am not mistaken to help with fuel pressure by bleeding out the boost spikes only. Meth resolves that issue as well.

Doing both? Not sure what is to be gained by the WG mod after meth is installed?



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[8nutz8]

SBS- i totally understand your statement about adding meth negating the need for the wastegate mod. I suppose you could say the wastegates PRIMARY purpose is to relieve stress on the fuel system. personally though, that's not why i decided to use it.
For me, i could feel everytime the ECU would close the throttle and it felt like the car would fall on it's face. I really wanted to keep the throttle open without putting the car in a really high load situation and it served that purpose for me. Another reason i like it is that i still get a ~2.5psi spike on the 2-3 shift which is pretty much perfect. It's not enough to kill FRP or drive timing down a ton . . . and im riding the extra boost out for a while without sacrificing in other areas. Really just a good balance.

 

[lamrith]

Maybe move the WG mod farther upstream?

This was my first thought as well, but keep thinking, would the pressure differential from the WG opening change the intake air velocity and have funky effects on the atomization/flow of the meth?

I honestly believe the atomization issues (or lack of for many) is due to the location of the nozzle.  It needs to be before the TB, the TB is what creates the turbulence that assists with getting the Meth dispersed well.  I think the other thread with the throttle plate sort of proves that out.  I would love to have meth be a simple throttle plate install, but it jsut does not offer the atomization needed.

The WG mod is to relieve Excess pressure, there might be a slight change in velocity, but in actuality the psi/airflow thru the nozzle area and TB should remain stable.  That is what the WG mod is designed to do, it evens out the spikes and creates a more uniform and controlled airflow.  Brad then keeps the TB open as part of it so you are really feeding the engine a uniform diet.

In theory.....

 

[J-Will]

So just use direct port injection

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[StealBlueSHO]

SBS- i totally understand your statement about adding meth negating the need for the wastegate mod. I suppose you could say the wastegates PRIMARY purpose is to relieve stress on the fuel system. personally though, that's not why i decided to use it.
For me, i could feel everytime the ECU would close the throttle and it felt like the car would fall on it's face. I really wanted to keep the throttle open without putting the car in a really high load situation and it served that purpose for me. Another reason i like it is that i still get a ~2.5psi spike on the 2-3 shift which is pretty much perfect. It's not enough to kill FRP or drive timing down a ton . . . and im riding the extra boost out for a while without sacrificing in other areas. Really just a good balance.

Sooooo... here is a log.. the throttle closed in first for a brief moment but check the second gear and third gear boost spikes... over 240kpa in first.. no throttle closure... perfect rail pressure...

The only reason the throttle closed in first is Brad and I were experimenting trying to find a away to curb the boost spike in first so I would quit breaking the tires loose after launching...

Point is.. with meth.. you can everything you are looking for without needing the added complexity of the wastegate mod. Which is why I didn't go back to it.

 

[ajpturbo]

^    Yeah sbs i agree on that....originally when i did the wg mod i wanted to run north of 15 psi AND keep the throttle open but the fuel system didnt like it....but with meth the 2 main problems really dont exist so the boost spike really isnt detrimental when you have juice

The 2 problems being the fuel pressure hit from the sudden load spike and the rapid increase in load from the spike that can cause KR

The increase in load isnt really a problem itself...lower spark is commanded and that doesnt mean less power because cylinder pressure is still there......but its the rate of the load increase