I guess with engine oil used to operate the cam phasers keeping the oil clean and changing the oil frequently with help the situation from the start,preventative maintenance is critical in order for your vehicle to run to its full potential,the PCM opens the valves to control the cam phasers,if dirty oil is detected and the phaser not responing correctly to the PCM will cause a DTC,an error in action versus expected cam advance or retard,sometimes by changing the oil the problem goes away. Z
New TSB for 3.5 GDI Sartup Rattle 15-0131
- Thread starter BiGMaC
- Start date
glock-coma
New member
It does help if you floor the gas pedal while starting, it doesn't start, just cranks for a few seconds before it fires over.
Edit for spelling.
Edit for spelling.
Sounds like it should... "Cold start priming mode" in the manual. I don't routinely do this in Phx, but I have a habit of not moving the car until the engine shows at least minimum operating temp.glock-coma said:
I would surmise from the video that by the time a DTC or CEL appear you'd be at risk of catastrophic engine failure and have significant timing chain damage..... Like Manu I'm interested in seeing how many are noting a startup rattle that resolves in 3.5 EB platforms other than the F150.
Short snippet of info, new chain & phasers:
http://www.f150forum.com/f70/2011-ecoboost-noise-start-up-204007/index136/#post4237214
"
For the record, I have 121,000 on the engine so there is roughly 45,000 miles on the replacement chain. It'll be interesting to see how much wear has occurred in that time. I know that I'm only seeing 2-3 degrees of timing error so this chain seems to be holding up better than the original one which failed at 75,000 miles.
For some reason, I'm feeling like this could be the permanent fix we've been wanting. "
"They got the front cover off this morning. Looks like my existing chain has stretched 1/2" over the new one. The tech said the adjuster was on the 5th notch which to him was borderline to seeing stretch issues. That would leave only two notches of adjustment remaining. So, over 45,000 miles of use, there was definitely a new problem creeping in. Guides looked good for 121,000 miles. The one guide had a groove maybe .010 deep and the other guide maybe .020. They were planning on reusing the guides. Surprise to me, but they ordered all 4 phasers. We had talked about him buying one and me buying the second so we'll have to see where the cost lands for the other two. I asked the tech to save me the phasers so I can tear them down. It'll be interesting to compare a high mileage phaser to one that only has moderate mileage. Hoping it'll be back together tomorrow so I can haul a atv up north for the weekend.
Have the 11's received a updated part number for the chain? For some reason, I'm thinking the newer trucks got a updated part and not the first year.
During my conversation with the tech, he said that mine was the loudest he's ever heard. I knew it had been getting worse, but the way he mulled on the point got me thinking that I must have gotten use to the noise. He also said this will be the fifth truck he's replaced a chain on."
"
http://www.f150forum.com/f70/2011-ecoboost-noise-start-up-204007/index136/#post4237214
"
Well truck is going under the knife this morning. This will be the third time the engine has been torn apart. The dealer is paying to have the drivers side intake phaser replaced, I'm going to pony up and pay for the updated timing chain and the passenger side phaser. They'll inspect the guides and replace them if there is any noticeable wear. We are not planning on replacing the exhaust phasers as I feel the slave chain may have protected them from the damaging harmonics. I did ask the dealer to compare the chains and I sure hope they do. They set me up with a rental so I plan on stopping over several times and try to catch the engine apart so I can inspect it. I'll post pics and/or a youtube vid if I can.
For the record, I have 121,000 on the engine so there is roughly 45,000 miles on the replacement chain. It'll be interesting to see how much wear has occurred in that time. I know that I'm only seeing 2-3 degrees of timing error so this chain seems to be holding up better than the original one which failed at 75,000 miles.
For some reason, I'm feeling like this could be the permanent fix we've been wanting. "
"They got the front cover off this morning. Looks like my existing chain has stretched 1/2" over the new one. The tech said the adjuster was on the 5th notch which to him was borderline to seeing stretch issues. That would leave only two notches of adjustment remaining. So, over 45,000 miles of use, there was definitely a new problem creeping in. Guides looked good for 121,000 miles. The one guide had a groove maybe .010 deep and the other guide maybe .020. They were planning on reusing the guides. Surprise to me, but they ordered all 4 phasers. We had talked about him buying one and me buying the second so we'll have to see where the cost lands for the other two. I asked the tech to save me the phasers so I can tear them down. It'll be interesting to compare a high mileage phaser to one that only has moderate mileage. Hoping it'll be back together tomorrow so I can haul a atv up north for the weekend.
Have the 11's received a updated part number for the chain? For some reason, I'm thinking the newer trucks got a updated part and not the first year.
During my conversation with the tech, he said that mine was the loudest he's ever heard. I knew it had been getting worse, but the way he mulled on the point got me thinking that I must have gotten use to the noise. He also said this will be the fifth truck he's replaced a chain on."
"
Actually, I think you are hitting upon the cause of the stretch. I've been following the recommended intervals for a oil change; roughly every 10,000 miles. I was doing this because I was already having a problem and didn't want to have the CEL come on a month or two out of the 2 year repair warranty. Now that the chain has been replaced (again) I'll go to a 5,000 mile interval. The tint to the aluminum was there already at 75,000 miles, but it's definetly darker now. If you look close you can see the passenger side intake phaser is slightly lighter because it was replaced. There is some varnish starting to show up in the areas which are not well washed with oil (under the passenger exhaust phaser). Tech wasn't concerned with the varnish, but I thought it was more than I was expecting."
I found a cool article ,hope it helps some. Z
Ti-VCT and EcoBoost
The 3.5L V6 (base) engine in the PI Sedan and the 3.7L V6 engine in the PI Utility use Twin independent Variable Cam Timing, Ti-VCT. That means all four cams are separately controlled by cam phasers and phase solenoids. (The four cams are one intake cam and one exhaust cam for both banks of the V6.) Ti-VCT, or variable valve timing, means each cam can be individually advanced or retarded (with respect to the crank and pistons) to produce the best power and the best fuel economy.
The 3.5L EcoBoost (twin turbo) V6 was discussed in detail during the course. Two important differences exist between the EcoBoost V6 and the other two police engines. The EcoBoost engine uses turbochargers and the EcoBoost engine uses direct injection.
The function of all the turbo and direct injection components were described and the location identified. For example, the direct injection uses two fuel pumps: a low pressure (65 psi) pump and a high-pressure (2150 psi) pump. Hear that subtle whir sound when the door unlock tab on the key fob is pressed? Or when the door is open and the courtesy lamp circuit is activated? That is the low pressure pump priming the direct-injection high-pressure system.
The second day was the core of the tech training. How about basic engine operation? The appropriate WSM and PC/ED service publications were pulled up. What section of the WSM describes turbocharger service procedures? Fuel Charging and Control. What is the function of the Adaptive Spark Ignition strategy? It retards ignition to prevent pre-detonation (ping). What symptom would occur if the Demand Control Valve electric circuit was interrupted, cut or disconnected? The engine will start, run and idle well, but it will not have much power.
Where is the Charge Air Cooler sensor located in relation to the throttle plate? It is upstream of the throttle plate. Do the 3.5L Ti-VCT and 3.7L Ti-VCT have a Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor? Or a Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor? Or both? The Ti-VCT engines have only a MAF, while the EcoBoost engine has two MAPs.
Right Oil is Critical
Engine oil has always been used as a lubricant and as a coolant. What new function does engine oil perform on Ti-VCT engines that it never did on the Ford CVPI 4.6L V8? It acts as hydraulic fluid to operate the cam phasers.
With engine oil used to operate the cam phasers, two aspects of preventative maintenance become even more critical. First, these new Police Interceptor engines MUST have the right weight-viscosity of engine oil. The PCM opens up valves to control the cam phasers based on the correct oil. Too heavy or too light and the cam phaser will over-react or under-react. The VCT phaser not responding correctly to the PCM will cause a DTC: an error in action versus expected cam advance or retard.
Exactly the same condition can occur with dirty oil, specifically oil that has depleted the anti-foam additives. Oil with tiny foam (air) bubbles is more compressible than oil with no foam. So, oil under pressure has to break these tiny bubbles before it can act as a true hydraulic fluid. That will cause a slight delay in the response of the cam phasers to the PCM command.
It won’t be much of a delay, but the PCM again monitors actual versus expected and can throw a DTC. Change the oil and the problem goes away. How about using synthetic oil? Nope. It is the anti-foam additive package that gets depleted, not the breakdown of the base stock.
Ti-VCT and EcoBoost
The 3.5L V6 (base) engine in the PI Sedan and the 3.7L V6 engine in the PI Utility use Twin independent Variable Cam Timing, Ti-VCT. That means all four cams are separately controlled by cam phasers and phase solenoids. (The four cams are one intake cam and one exhaust cam for both banks of the V6.) Ti-VCT, or variable valve timing, means each cam can be individually advanced or retarded (with respect to the crank and pistons) to produce the best power and the best fuel economy.
The 3.5L EcoBoost (twin turbo) V6 was discussed in detail during the course. Two important differences exist between the EcoBoost V6 and the other two police engines. The EcoBoost engine uses turbochargers and the EcoBoost engine uses direct injection.
The function of all the turbo and direct injection components were described and the location identified. For example, the direct injection uses two fuel pumps: a low pressure (65 psi) pump and a high-pressure (2150 psi) pump. Hear that subtle whir sound when the door unlock tab on the key fob is pressed? Or when the door is open and the courtesy lamp circuit is activated? That is the low pressure pump priming the direct-injection high-pressure system.
The second day was the core of the tech training. How about basic engine operation? The appropriate WSM and PC/ED service publications were pulled up. What section of the WSM describes turbocharger service procedures? Fuel Charging and Control. What is the function of the Adaptive Spark Ignition strategy? It retards ignition to prevent pre-detonation (ping). What symptom would occur if the Demand Control Valve electric circuit was interrupted, cut or disconnected? The engine will start, run and idle well, but it will not have much power.
Where is the Charge Air Cooler sensor located in relation to the throttle plate? It is upstream of the throttle plate. Do the 3.5L Ti-VCT and 3.7L Ti-VCT have a Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor? Or a Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor? Or both? The Ti-VCT engines have only a MAF, while the EcoBoost engine has two MAPs.
Right Oil is Critical
Engine oil has always been used as a lubricant and as a coolant. What new function does engine oil perform on Ti-VCT engines that it never did on the Ford CVPI 4.6L V8? It acts as hydraulic fluid to operate the cam phasers.
With engine oil used to operate the cam phasers, two aspects of preventative maintenance become even more critical. First, these new Police Interceptor engines MUST have the right weight-viscosity of engine oil. The PCM opens up valves to control the cam phasers based on the correct oil. Too heavy or too light and the cam phaser will over-react or under-react. The VCT phaser not responding correctly to the PCM will cause a DTC: an error in action versus expected cam advance or retard.
Exactly the same condition can occur with dirty oil, specifically oil that has depleted the anti-foam additives. Oil with tiny foam (air) bubbles is more compressible than oil with no foam. So, oil under pressure has to break these tiny bubbles before it can act as a true hydraulic fluid. That will cause a slight delay in the response of the cam phasers to the PCM command.
It won’t be much of a delay, but the PCM again monitors actual versus expected and can throw a DTC. Change the oil and the problem goes away. How about using synthetic oil? Nope. It is the anti-foam additive package that gets depleted, not the breakdown of the base stock.
TSB 15-0131: 3.5L GTDI - COLD START - TICKING-TAPPING OR RATTLE TYPE NOISE - BUILT ON OR BEFORE 5-29-2015
FORD: 2011-2015 F-150
ISSUE
Some 2011-2015 F-150 vehicles equipped with a 3.5L Gasoline Turbocharged Direct Injection (GTDI) engine and built on or before 5/29/2015 may exhibit a ticking/tapping or rattle type noise from the top front cover area of the engine upon initial start-up that may last for 2-5 seconds after a cold soak of six or more hours.
ACTION
Follow the Service Procedure steps to correct the condition.
SERVICE PROCEDURE
1. Check the vehicle build date. Was the vehicle built on or before 5/29/2015?
a. Yes - proceed to Step 2.
b. No - this procedure does not apply. Refer to Workshop Manual (WSM), Section 303-00 for normal diagnosis.
2. Does the customer state a ticking/tapping or rattle type noise occurs from the top front cover area of the engine upon initial cold start-up that lasts for 2-5 seconds after a cold soak of 6 or more hours?
a. Yes - proceed to Step 3.
b. No - this procedure does not apply. Refer to WSM, Section 303-00 for normal diagnosis.
3. Replace all four variable camshaft timing (VCT) units and primary timing chain. Refer to WSM, Section 303-01.
PART NUMBER PART NAME
AT4Z-6256-B Intake VCT Unit (2 Req)
AT4Z-6C525-B Exhaust VCT Unit (2 Req)
AT4Z-6279-D Bolt - Intake VCT (2 Req)
AT4Z-6279-E Bolt - Exhaust VCT (2 Req)
AT4Z-6268-C Chain - Primary Timing
AA5Z-9439-A Gasket - Intake
BL3Z-6584-A Gasket - Camshaft Cover - Left Side
BR3Z-6584-B Gasket - Camshaft Cover - Right Side (2011–2012)
DL3Z-6584-B Gasket - Camshaft Cover - Right Side (2013–2015)
BL3Z-9E583-B O-ring - High Pressure Pump
BR3Z-8507-C Gasket - Pump
BR3Z-8527-A O-ring - Pump
7T4Z-8590-A Seal - Coolant inlet
XW4Z-6700-AA Seal - Crank
BR3Z-6020-A Seal - Front Cover Radial
F5RZ-6A340-B Bolt - Damper
TA-357 Motorcraft® High Performance Engine RTV Silicone
ZC-30-A Motorcraft® Silicone Gasket Remover
ZC-31-B Motorcraft® Metal Surface Prep
VC-3-B Motorcraft® Orange Antifreeze/Coolant Concentrated
XO-5W30-QSP Motorcraft® SAE 5W-30 Premium Synthetic Blend Motor Oil
OPERATION DESCRIPTION TIME
150131A 2011-2014 F-150 3.5L GTDI: Replace All Four VCT Units And The Primary Timing Chain (Do Not Use With Any Other Labor Operations) 9.2 Hrs.
150131A 2015 F-150 3.5L GTDI: Replace All Four VCT Units And The Primary Timing Chain (Do Not Use With Any Other Labor Operations) 8.8 Hrs.
WARRANTY STATUS:
Eligible Under Provisions Of New Vehicle Limited Warranty Coverage And Emissions Warranty Coverage
Warranty/ESP coverage limits/policies/prior approvals are not altered by a TSB. Warranty/ESP coverage limits are determined by the identified causal part and verified using the OASIS part coverage tool.
DEALER CODING
BASIC PART NO. CONDITION CODE
6C525 42
FORD: 2011-2015 F-150
ISSUE
Some 2011-2015 F-150 vehicles equipped with a 3.5L Gasoline Turbocharged Direct Injection (GTDI) engine and built on or before 5/29/2015 may exhibit a ticking/tapping or rattle type noise from the top front cover area of the engine upon initial start-up that may last for 2-5 seconds after a cold soak of six or more hours.
ACTION
Follow the Service Procedure steps to correct the condition.
SERVICE PROCEDURE
1. Check the vehicle build date. Was the vehicle built on or before 5/29/2015?
a. Yes - proceed to Step 2.
b. No - this procedure does not apply. Refer to Workshop Manual (WSM), Section 303-00 for normal diagnosis.
2. Does the customer state a ticking/tapping or rattle type noise occurs from the top front cover area of the engine upon initial cold start-up that lasts for 2-5 seconds after a cold soak of 6 or more hours?
a. Yes - proceed to Step 3.
b. No - this procedure does not apply. Refer to WSM, Section 303-00 for normal diagnosis.
3. Replace all four variable camshaft timing (VCT) units and primary timing chain. Refer to WSM, Section 303-01.
PART NUMBER PART NAME
AT4Z-6256-B Intake VCT Unit (2 Req)
AT4Z-6C525-B Exhaust VCT Unit (2 Req)
AT4Z-6279-D Bolt - Intake VCT (2 Req)
AT4Z-6279-E Bolt - Exhaust VCT (2 Req)
AT4Z-6268-C Chain - Primary Timing
AA5Z-9439-A Gasket - Intake
BL3Z-6584-A Gasket - Camshaft Cover - Left Side
BR3Z-6584-B Gasket - Camshaft Cover - Right Side (2011–2012)
DL3Z-6584-B Gasket - Camshaft Cover - Right Side (2013–2015)
BL3Z-9E583-B O-ring - High Pressure Pump
BR3Z-8507-C Gasket - Pump
BR3Z-8527-A O-ring - Pump
7T4Z-8590-A Seal - Coolant inlet
XW4Z-6700-AA Seal - Crank
BR3Z-6020-A Seal - Front Cover Radial
F5RZ-6A340-B Bolt - Damper
TA-357 Motorcraft® High Performance Engine RTV Silicone
ZC-30-A Motorcraft® Silicone Gasket Remover
ZC-31-B Motorcraft® Metal Surface Prep
VC-3-B Motorcraft® Orange Antifreeze/Coolant Concentrated
XO-5W30-QSP Motorcraft® SAE 5W-30 Premium Synthetic Blend Motor Oil
OPERATION DESCRIPTION TIME
150131A 2011-2014 F-150 3.5L GTDI: Replace All Four VCT Units And The Primary Timing Chain (Do Not Use With Any Other Labor Operations) 9.2 Hrs.
150131A 2015 F-150 3.5L GTDI: Replace All Four VCT Units And The Primary Timing Chain (Do Not Use With Any Other Labor Operations) 8.8 Hrs.
WARRANTY STATUS:
Eligible Under Provisions Of New Vehicle Limited Warranty Coverage And Emissions Warranty Coverage
Warranty/ESP coverage limits/policies/prior approvals are not altered by a TSB. Warranty/ESP coverage limits are determined by the identified causal part and verified using the OASIS part coverage tool.
DEALER CODING
BASIC PART NO. CONDITION CODE
6C525 42
glock-coma
New member
I see that it falls under the emissions warranty coverage. Is that 7 years ?
I've not had this happen on my car w/ just over 41k miles now and it can sit for a week some times. The wife's truck hasn't shown this particular issue either and she's got just a tick over 38k miles on the '13. I typically don't look at the mileage when doing oil changes simply because that doesn't take into account any extended idling time (i.e. remote starting or sitting in traffic, etc.) where the ECU should and thusly reduce the oil life % remaining appropriately. Once I see them hit the 50% mark I plan their oil changes. I only use Mobil One Extended oil as well as their filters.
But now that this is all coming to a head with this new TSB I'm going to keep an eye on both cars for any startup noises going forward.
But now that this is all coming to a head with this new TSB I'm going to keep an eye on both cars for any startup noises going forward.
glock-coma
New member
im not on Facebook, you can add me to the list.SHOnUup said:
shaneirish
New member
I have a 2010 SHO with 80,000 and I've noticed the rattle since around 39,000 miles most of the time on cold starts.
What are the factors Ford uses before a TSB is generated? I think most SHO owners thought it was normal so not many have complained.
What are the factors Ford uses before a TSB is generated? I think most SHO owners thought it was normal so not many have complained.
shaneirish
New member
OASIS MESSAGE :
SOME 2007-2010 MKZ/EDGE/MKX, 2008-2010 TAURUS, 2008-2009 SABLE/TAURUS X, 2009/2010 FLEX/MKS, 2010 MKT/FUSION EQUIPPED WITH A 3.5L V6 OR 3.7L V6 ENGINE MAY EXHIBIT A LIGHT TICKING NOISE AFTER A COLD START WHICH MAY LAST UNTIL ENGINEWARM UP. THE NOISE IS DUE TO THE COMBINATION OF LIGHT LOAD OPERATING CONDITIONS AND THE NORMAL CYLINDER HEAD AND VALVETRAIN CLEARANCES PRESENT IN A COLD ENGINE.THIS NOISE DOES NOT AFFECT PERFORMANCE OR LONG-TERM DURABILITY OF THE ENGINE.
SOME 2007-2010 MKZ/EDGE/MKX, 2008-2010 TAURUS, 2008-2009 SABLE/TAURUS X, 2009/2010 FLEX/MKS, 2010 MKT/FUSION EQUIPPED WITH A 3.5L V6 OR 3.7L V6 ENGINE MAY EXHIBIT A LIGHT TICKING NOISE AFTER A COLD START WHICH MAY LAST UNTIL ENGINEWARM UP. THE NOISE IS DUE TO THE COMBINATION OF LIGHT LOAD OPERATING CONDITIONS AND THE NORMAL CYLINDER HEAD AND VALVETRAIN CLEARANCES PRESENT IN A COLD ENGINE.THIS NOISE DOES NOT AFFECT PERFORMANCE OR LONG-TERM DURABILITY OF THE ENGINE.