Shell V-Power 93 and ethanol

FoMoCoSHO

New member
So you learn something new every day. I have been under the impression for many years that this fuel was pure gas. Apparently that is incorrect and contains ethanol already. Now I don't have any issue with this obviously but knowing the amount in my base fuel would've been really fricken helpful!  :curse:

No damn wonder I ran out of fuel this winter...

I emailed Shell and will update when i get a response.
 
Oh, and if you happen to be in Ohio, there are no labeling requirements on the pump.

Looks like that changed in 2002.

Yeah politicians!
 
Supposedly all you need is a graduated cylinder, distilled water, and fuel sample to guesstimate the ethanol %.  There are kits that use dyes also to make the phase separation boundary easier to see.  Here's an E85 test kit:
http://www.amazon.com/Quick-Fuel-36-E85-E-85-Sample/dp/B007ZJ749O/

IIRC, the tagline in MD is that "this product may contain up to 10% ethanol by volume", so you don't know what you are getting either.
 
Your email will be some generic response I bet. Something about how fuel is made to the requirements of local and federal laws.  Just a guess.  But I hope they provide a detailed letter.
 
panther427 said:
Your email will be some generic response I bet. Something about how fuel is made to the requirements of local and federal laws.  Just a guess.  But I hope they provide a detailed letter.
Others apparently have gotten details so we shall see.

If not I will get a kit and play Mr Wizard as SHOdded suggested.
 
Shell is actually somewhat open to sharing information with the end consumer. I mean nothing too divulging. But you might get better than some generic correspondence.

FoMoCo, were you under the impression that you were blending E85 with unoxygenated V-Power?

I am an operator at a Shell distribution terminal. I can answer many questions about the process in general. And the business model. But it's very different state to state, region to region. So you may be at the mercy of whatever Shell's marketing group tells you. Heh
 
wasinger3000 said:
Most of my base fuel is at 4-12%E

Goes to show you (& others) the wide, varying ranges of E that's out there at any given time.

Factor in regional differences therein.....

Makes matters worse when one starts mixing their own concoctions, not to mention phase separation issues from storage of those mixed solutions.

Good reason why I continue to shy away from E myself, and rely solely on a quality grade, ISO Standard produced Methanol.

Consistent. Reliable. Time and time again. Makes life sssssoooooo much easier and worry free.

 
bpd1151 said:
wasinger3000 said:
Most of my base fuel is at 4-12%E

Goes to show you (& others) the wide, varying ranges of E that's out there at any given time.

Factor in regional differences therein.....

Makes matters worse when one starts mixing their own concoctions, not to mention phase separation issues from storage of those mixed solutions.

Good reason why I continue to shy away from E myself, and rely solely on a quality grade, ISO Standard produced Methanol.

Consistent. Reliable. Time and time again. Makes life sssssoooooo much easier and worry free.
It is amazing how much it varies from one place to the next. I have a top tier fuel station that I fill up at and I did a fuel test for a few months. Found out 3 out of the 7 fill ups I did contained over 5% E the other 4 were at 0%. Although it was not advertised as pure gas. So I found that kinda cool although it was hit and miss. No consistency at all.
 
I'm fairly skeptical of the little phase separation based testers. I'm not sure what their claimed margin of error is, but it is a very unscientific form of analysis. And that's a significant reported spread.
While blend isn't analyized in-house very frequently, we have a 30K dollar piece of equipment to analyze EToH blend...just to offer some perspective. And I believe it is infrared and doesn't rely on full phase separation to occur to test the sample.

Anyway, here's the deal on varying E blends...

The oil companies are mandated by the Renewable Energy Standard to distribute X amount of renewables every year, a value which is always increasing, year to year. So, something like 95 percent of all gasoline distributed in the US has been oxygenated with ethanol, nearly all of which is at 10 percent blend. And while blending methods differ, typically either ratio blending or splash blending, they're both very reliable and accurate. And generally speaking, it just doesn't leave the terminal with some wild spec blend. I'm an operator at one of these terminals. If blend is out of spec, due to a mechanical issue or driver error, I don't release that product to the streets. Any terminal that isn't some hillbilly operation operates by similar standards. And remember, there isn't a wide margin for error, becasue the oil companies WANT the renewables in their fuels, to satisfy the governemnt standards.

All of that said, that doesn't mean conventional gasoline, without feedstock blending doesn't exist, isn't distributed. However, nearly all large urban areas require RBOB or CBOB distribution exclusively, both of which are blended with EToH (Reformulated/Conventional Blendstock for Oxygenate Blending). It really is regional. In areas like Austin, Houston, DFW and such, you won't find this phenomenon, as conventional may not be distributed anywhere in the immediate area. And the risk of selling conventionalal in an RFG, VOC/RVP regulated area outways any cost savings from hauling in conventional from outside of town. 

If you're finding erratic consistency in E percentage, it is purely at the fault of the retail station owner. He's taking in gas based on price, shopping the market with disregard to fuel type. So he may buy a truck load of E0 conventional or something and a week later buy the RFG E10 because it was cheaper.

There's only a handful of states which require labeling on gas dispensers. So most just toss the "Up to 10%" decals.

Maybe if you become friendly with the owner of the station, he will share details or BOL/manifests of his gas purchases.
 
IHeartGroceries said:
I'm fairly skeptical of the little phase separation based testers. I'm not sure what their claimed margin of error is, but it is a very unscientific form of analysis. And that's a significant reported spread.
While blend isn't analyized in-house very frequently, we have a 30K dollar piece of equipment to analyze EToH blend...just to offer some perspective. And I believe it is infrared and doesn't rely on full phase separation to occur to test the sample.

Anyway, here's the deal on varying E blends...

The oil companies are mandated by the Renewable Energy Standard to distribute X amount of renewables every year, a value which is always increasing, year to year. So, something like 95 percent of all gasoline distributed in the US has been oxygenated with ethanol, nearly all of which is at 10 percent blend. And while blending methods differ, typically either ratio blending or splash blending, they're both very reliable and accurate. And generally speaking, it just doesn't leave the terminal with some wild spec blend. I'm an operator at one of these terminals. If blend is out of spec, due to a mechanical issue or driver error, I don't release that product to the streets. Any terminal that isn't some hillbilly operation operates by similar standards. And remember, there isn't a wide margin for error, becasue the oil companies WANT the renewables in their fuels, to satisfy the governemnt standards.

All of that said, that doesn't mean conventional gasoline, without feedstock blending doesn't exist, isn't distributed. However, nearly all large urban areas require RBOB or CBOB distribution exclusively, both of which are blended with EToH (Reformulated/Conventional Blendstock for Oxygenate Blending). It really is regional. In areas like Austin, Houston, DFW and such, you won't find this phenomenon, as conventional may not be distributed anywhere in the immediate area. And the risk of selling conventionalal in an RFG, VOC/RVP regulated area outways any cost savings from hauling in conventional from outside of town. 

If you're finding erratic consistency in E percentage, it is purely at the fault of the retail station owner. He's taking in gas based on price, shopping the market with disregard to fuel type. So he may buy a truck load of E0 conventional or something and a week later buy the RFG E10 because it was cheaper.

There's only a handful of states which require labeling on gas dispensers. So most just toss the "Up to 10%" decals.

Maybe if you become friendly with the owner of the station, he will share details or BOL/manifests of his gas purchases.
Excillent info! I wasn't expecting my little $19 tester to be remotely accurate. It more or less entertains my attempt to measure E%.

As for my local gas station owner, I know who he is and he's a @$$# bag. His dad used to put a garden hose in the fuel storage tank and add water to increase his profit. Till he got caught. I know his son is no better so I do not doubt he's buying the cheapest fuel he can find at the time. Idk how they can keep the "top tier" logo on the pumps. If that's even a thing anymore.
 
So the problem still remains for the consumer:  how do they rely on being provided a consistent product?  One bad link in the chain and you are done for.  And you assume that no more than 10% ethanol is in the fuel, how do you know it's not over?
 
Sadly, fraud is pretty rampant. You wouldn't believe the stories I hear. It's a difficult thing to manage, because there are hardly any Major Oil Owned and Operated retail stations anymore. So it's literally up to the integrity of the station owner. Plus, even some of the wholesalers, who're are also Branded Independent Retailers, commit fraud. It's most these BIRs who do these little under the table deals with unruly carrier drivers. Like, I'll split the earnings with you. Or, hey, drop that laat 500 gal of regular into my super tank and you can have all of the snacks you want in my store. Lol!
The brand owned companies do what they can to control that type of thing...but, you gotta think, when the station can dispense the evidence of fraud in a single day, it's a challenge!

As far as over blended, you really won't find that. Nobody releases it to the street. I mean, sure, it can happen. It does happen. But it's do to some one off mechanical error, if it leaves the rack over blended. Otherwise, blame the carriers or the consignees. Carriers comingle so much prouct in their transport tankers. From retain or because they're careless. It's also pretty frequent that they screw up entirely and deliver branded product to unbranded stations, or vise verse. And before anybody realizes what happened, all of that product has been dispensed to the end consumer. Lol! It's a circus.

That's why I always say find a reliable, branded filling station.with high throughput. Or fill at Quik Trip or grocers like Kroger, where they sign these contract deals which streanlines their product source and fuel carriers. This will reduce the liklihood of cross contamination and mishandling of product. They usually have dedicated transports and drivers for these deliveries.
 
Shell's response...

"Thank you for contacting Shell Solutions Center.

In the US:

In order to comply with the Government’s Federal Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS), most Shell gasoline contain 10% ethanol by volume.  Due to these Federal obligations, nearly every gallon of gasoline sold in the US must contain 10% ethanol.  While all states sell gasoline with ethanol, there are limited areas where ethanol free gasoline is sold, mostly for RV (recreational vehicle), marine or outdoor use. 

To determine whether the gasoline you are purchasing contains ethanol, you should look for a label on the dispenser indicating ethanol content.  All gasoline stations should post a label on the dispenser advising if the gasoline contains ethanol and the maximum amount (depending on State laws, which may or may not make this labeling mandatory for 10% or less ethanol content).

In addition, the decision on whether to offer ethanol free gasoline is determined by each local Shell station as they are all independently owned and operated.  And because Shell stations are all independently owned and operated locally, we would not have a listing of which stations offer which grades of fuel."

 
I'm not buying that e levels being excruciating high is a common place thing, like Iheartgroceries said, maybe if it's some little hill billy stop. There are thousands of people here that are running e with great success and these are also all the same people with the top speeds at the track here. Idk maybe some of you live out in BFE, but here it's pretty much one guy who owns every major fuel station and they are all labeled, in fact there is only 2 stations in the state with non ethanol gas, one is 87 octane and the other is 91. 93 just mysteriously showed up at shell here down town Boise and now one is just down the road from me (I live a couple cities away) so I'm finally set. After filling with 93 I still added 2 gallons of e and she felt smooth as butter. My last fill up I didn't add any extra e and she does not pull as hard but I don't need to worry about high e levels. So far so good, I am honestly shocked that FoMoCoSHO didn't realize he was running that much e, as he's the one who opened my eyes to how good this stuff is for the track. If a place isn't labeled I wouldn't get gas there as I've made phone calls to local stations and they had no idea what octane gas they offered


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IHeartGroceries said:
Sadly, fraud is pretty rampant. You wouldn't believe the stories I hear. It's a difficult thing to manage, because there are hardly any Major Oil Owned and Operated retail stations anymore. So it's literally up to the integrity of the station owner. Plus, even some of the wholesalers, who're are also Branded Independent Retailers, commit fraud. It's most these BIRs who do these little under the table deals with unruly carrier drivers. Like, I'll split the earnings with you. Or, hey, drop that laat 500 gal of regular into my super tank and you can have all of the snacks you want in my store. Lol!
The brand owned companies do what they can to control that type of thing...but, you gotta think, when the station can dispense the evidence of fraud in a single day, it's a challenge!

As far as over blended, you really won't find that. Nobody releases it to the street. I mean, sure, it can happen. It does happen. But it's do to some one off mechanical error, if it leaves the rack over blended. Otherwise, blame the carriers or the consignees. Carriers comingle so much prouct in their transport tankers. From retain or because they're careless. It's also pretty frequent that they screw up entirely and deliver branded product to unbranded stations, or vise verse. And before anybody realizes what happened, all of that product has been dispensed to the end consumer. Lol! It's a circus.

That's why I always say find a reliable, branded filling station.with high throughput. Or fill at Quik Trip or grocers like Kroger, where they sign these contract deals which streanlines their product source and fuel carriers. This will reduce the liklihood of cross contamination and mishandling of product. They usually have dedicated transports and drivers for these deliveries.
Do you think I should try to find a grocery store owned gas station? In hopes they would be more likely to follow the rules? The one who I do not trust is locally owned and only has 3 stores. They hire their own truck and driver so they control the whole process. It's a ConocoPhillips labeled station. Does ConocoPhillips do any franchise quality control?
 
Airbornemaikai said:
I'm not buying that e levels being excruciating high is a common place thing, like Iheartgroceries said, maybe if it's some little hill billy stop. There are thousands of people here that are running e with great success and these are also all the same people with the top speeds at the track here. Idk maybe some of you live out in BFE, but here it's pretty much one guy who owns every major fuel station and they are all labeled, in fact there is only 2 stations in the state with non ethanol gas, one is 87 octane and the other is 91. 93 just mysteriously showed up at shell here down town Boise and now one is just down the road from me (I live a couple cities away) so I'm finally set. After filling with 93 I still added 2 gallons of e and she felt smooth as butter. My last fill up I didn't add any extra e and she does not pull as hard but I don't need to worry about high e levels. So far so good, I am honestly shocked that FoMoCoSHO didn't realize he was running that much e, as he's the one who opened my eyes to how good this stuff is for the track. If a place isn't labeled I wouldn't get gas there as I've made phone calls to local stations and they had no idea what octane gas they offered


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Why are you shocked? Things change, politicians change rules without consulting their constituents, and for a long time here Shell was touted as pure gas. Ohio used to have pump requirements. I assumed with Shell's reputation they would put some labels on their pumps if things had changed but obviously not (Hell even speedway does!). Ignorance is bliss and nothing blew up....Yay Ecoboost (Bosch?) programming! Hell I was even warning people about adjusting if their base was oxygenated, lol I guess I should've heeded my own warning.

This is what I get for being out of the car scene for so long but the good thing is this explains those times where things got worse or better than expected FRP results when blending. If you've been watching recent posts, I've been moving to a less is more philosophy, at least with DI cars that is.

I will get a tester, see if my normal station is consistent and adjust from there. My goal all along was to find the sweet spot of high effective octane and fuel pressure...The 70% tanks were just my morbid curiosity to see how far before the car protested...it never did. It did not however like this winter at 30, err, make that 40%  ;)

As far as over blending what concerns me is human nature and the fact e is the cheap way to raise octane. Now with the EPA moving towards the 15% level that makes the situation worse(better?). For my purposes, I would love to have 15% V-power blend right out of the pump. One stop shopping for me and the way EPA guidelines are moving it will probably happen.

So what next? Establish a new baseline and do some real world testing of the DI injected ethanol theories and see what holds true in real world application.

Oh and for all you anti E folks, lookie what Shell is up to...cellulosic ethanol, no more using food for fuel and a noble goal that required food based E to advance the tech to this point.

http://www.shell.com/global/environment-society/environment/climate-change/biofuels-alternative-energies-transport/biofuels/advanced-biofuels.html



 
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