Simple question....unleashed or livernois for basic 93 tune

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Josephm said:
My issue when this topic comes up, comes straight from this post (^^^).

The fact that you say LMS is safer, is not a fact. Think about it, How would a tune, that is a off the shelf, one for all, be SAFER, than one where the individual records his OWN perimeters and sends it off to a tuner. Its just not possible.
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The target settings are what makes a tune safe or not in either case.  An "off the shelf" tune can be "safer" just by being less aggressive in the tune.  From the sound of it Torrie's tunes are "off the shelf" too and then are tuned further (more aggressive or milder) based off customer supplied logs that LMS says contain incorrect data. 
Maybe LMS has pid's and more accurate formulas that are licensed then what are in Torque or other logging software.
 
Livernois Motorsports said:
4DRHTRD said:
Why do you keep saying that the sensors are bad? How are they bad and what proof do you have to show your sensors vs the vehicle sensors and the differences?
You're not having to defend yourself I just put up the information that I have seen. LMS keeps referencing on different boards that the sensors don't work and you're getting bad data. I want proof of such statements, not just statements to that effect.
Are you saying the lambda values from the stock wideband O2 are not accurate? If so can you show a comparison between an NGK wideband in comparison to the stock wideband?
I want data, not statements without data, that's not bashing that's asking for information. When I post up things I take videos, dynos etc to back my statements. Real world testing with videos of said testing with values taken from the ECU which you say aren't correct.
Please please enlighten me as I'm very confused how the sensors don't work on our vehicles and provide bad data, wouldn't that cause the factory ECU safety systems to not work correctly?

If my statement about company B are incorrect update them, I only know what I read on the forums from your customers in what I'm seeing about the tuner/response times etc.
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No one said the sensors are bad. What we have said, keep saying, and will continue to keep saying is that the dataloggers people are using are not accurate. Plain and simple. If someone else other than us knew, really knew how these ecm's worked then they would know how incorrect these dataloggers are. Every one of them. The sensors aren't the problem, the software and hardware being used to read them is.
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I'm asking for you to prove this statement, show us how they are incorrect. Throw up a video with proof of how inaccurate the dataloggers are (which ones too).
For my sake I can't believe someone just cause they say so, especially with something as easy to show or prove as your statement is. If I were you I would have videos showing and proving your statements not just throwing them out there.
 
How is it out of control, there's no personal attacks, this is a good technical debate and needs to be had.
Rumors spread between people behind the scenes makes it worse, discussing it in public makes it go away or substantiates them.
 
Let's ask the OP what he thinks of the discussion so far.  He already stated in reply #27 he has what he needs, so we should respect that, and move further discussion to another topic, IMHO.
 
Josephm said:
It wasn't a tune issue though. He(bob)came out and said he added more meth than water than he was tuned for.

So when it's said xxx is the safest, that's a false statement. Or subjective to what you call safe.
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But you did say we had 2 cars fail, one via meth, and one after we did turbos. NEITHER of which are true. The closest thing we had was the car with turbos has a bad seal on it. We picked up the car at no cost to the customer (who was over 800 miles away) and brought it here to repair. Unfortunately a supplier caused us some turmoil, but no harm came to the car at all. The other failure you are referencing had zero to do with us, we didn't even tune his vehicle.

In reference to divulging the specifics as to what are wrong with the items being data logged, we would be happy so show people in person. But we made a substantial investment to figure it out, so I hope you appreciate we are not going to post that for everyone to just steal. It's been 6 years and the same errors exist, so clearly these companies either don't know how to correct it, don't care to correct it, or both. These reasons are just part of many why we chose to do our own tuner, and develop everything ourselves.
 
crash712us said:
Eco brick bob used denatured alcohol instead of methanol. And that was the root of his failure. And no one blamed Torrie, but you just blame LMS for this. Maybe your just new, but it's so widely known that bob was torrie tuned I don't see how this could be confused.
And that's what really irks me, that there several of are early pioneers that had Torrie tunes that switch to LMS and not one them bash Torrie. Yet we have people here that haven't dealt with LMS and yet feel the need to bash them, or spread false information.
Why can't we afford LMS the same courtesy?
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I never bashed anyone. This got me started when people kept regurgitating Livernois is the "safe" choice, and then i proceeded to say there was only two failures and ONE came from Livernois.

There's no false information. I'll find the thread if it has not been deleted. 

I suppose you were unaware, but i think i was here when this forum started. When 4DR was the only one posting, and it about was about this Flex.

Livernois Motorsports said:
crash712us said:
Josephm said:
The word 'Safe' is IRRELEVANT when it comes to Livernois. I know of only two failures from tuned vehicles, and one CAME from livernois after they did the upgraded turbo (Search for that if you really want filled in; That was my deciding factor on picking a tuner.) and the other was a admitted user error (Meth).
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^^^^I am going to venture a guess that the failed turbo you reference had nothing to do with a fault of the tune supplied by Livernois. 
And yes there are "safe" tunes that can be mass produced and delivered to customers if the time and effort in R&D is there. Well they qualify as the fastest or best tune, probably not, but enough safety can be built into a tune to allow for the masses to utilize their benefits over the stock tune.
I believe Livernois has more than substantiated themselves as a top supplier of tuning and parts for our Ecoboost platforms. Realistically they are also going to represent one of very few avenues for continued development due to their size and commitment and I applaud their efforts.
 
They are all safe at this point.With only two people having issues in the year i have been here, and each there own cause.
There's not one safer than the other. I almost willing to bet, they are probably very close to identical.



 
Josephm said:
I never bashed anyone. This got me started when people kept regurgitating Livernois is the "safe" choice, and then i proceeded to say there was only two failures and ONE came from Livernois.

There's no false information. I'll find the thread if it has not been deleted. 
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There never has been a car that we installed turbos on that had an engine failure. Period. I know every customer that we have done turbos for, and not once has there been an issue with any of those cars' engines or transmissions.

With that being said, any engine platform that you add 60%+ more power to is going to have times it breaks, regardless of tuning. Some of these cars with upgraded turbos are making 200WHP more than stock, and the internals can only handle so much. They are not indestructible. A proper tune can extend the life of a combo like this, but not guarantee it's life expectancy. This is why we were proactive and designed rods and pistons long before anyone was pushing these hard enough to need them. We know what is safe, and what isn't.

We really have a standing policy not to get tied up in bashing, and it's unfortunate that people are posting blatantly incorrect data about our company. We would never do such a thing, and go out of our way not to. We try to educate, and improve a vehicle community when we support it, even if that means challenging the status quo.
 
4DRHTRD said:
So if I flew up there you have an ecoboost car you can show me these tests in person?
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We would love for that to happen. Any time we can educate someone it benefits the community as a whole. We own 5 EcoBoost vehicles, so to say we will have one available is an understatement :)

I know you had a good number of other items that you were wanting to see our Data on, so it would be great. Will we show you how to tune? probably not ;) but we would love you educate you on how honest we are being.
 
I don't want to tune, I don't want to know how to tune. I do want to see data comparisons of various platforms vs your findings. That would go a long way towards me stop thinking it's marketing hype vs fact.

I have to make a few trips to Calgary and Edmonton, I'll try and get an extended layover in Chicago on the way back. I'm headed up there Sunday but only for a 2 day meeting.
I'll work with you guys on timelines once I figure out my schedule.
 
IMO , this thread should be closed period. Way too much tension. Our sponsors are here to support our community and we should do the same .

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

 
Josephm said:
Here's the post for the people that i was talking about. Read up, it gets interesting around page 16

http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=500.0;wap2
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That car is the car that had bad turbo seals, it never blew up. We picked it up, sent the turbos to be repaired, and put it back together and it's perfect. He's actually looking at doing even more to it now. We have nothing to hide on this car because we stepped up by going to get the car to address it, but it had no engine problems.

I am not certain what turbo seals have to do with the safety, performance, or validity of our tunes are. Sometimes turbo seals go bad, but that's all it was. The customer drove the car for thousands of miles with no problems other than occasional smoking. I know there are members here with stock turbos that have done the same thing.
 
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