I think that might be the ticket. We have tables for Sand, Snow, etc... but those are Explorer settings. I know going into Sport mode changes the throttle mapping, shift schedules, and a few other items (like the ability to stay in a gear manually). It was hard trying to get this idea through to HP Tuners though. It wasn't until I logged clear differences in boost levels that they started looking at it.
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The self-tuning thread
- Thread starter 4DRHTRD
- Start date
AJP turbo said:16-17 PSI and I think 22-23 degrees available timing w/o knock so far.metroplex said:How well does it run at 0.85 lambda? I was experimenting with this as well and couldn't find much data from anyone other than dyno sheets for F-150's w/ the 3.5 EB and they seemed to be running 0.85 lambda with 87 and 93 octane.
Tons of rail pressure
I've been running 0.85 lambda and didn't see any change in knock retard from 0.76, 0.79, or 0.82 and the fuel rail pressure looks almost stock.
On your graph it appeared you had almost 5 degrees of KR and were only running 5 degrees of timing?metroplex said:AJP turbo said:16-17 PSI and I think 22-23 degrees available timing w/o knock so far.metroplex said:How well does it run at 0.85 lambda? I was experimenting with this as well and couldn't find much data from anyone other than dyno sheets for F-150's w/ the 3.5 EB and they seemed to be running 0.85 lambda with 87 and 93 octane.
Tons of rail pressure
I've been running 0.85 lambda and didn't see any change in knock retard from 0.76, 0.79, or 0.82 and the fuel rail pressure looks almost stock.
So it looks like as you are adding boost the ECM is pulling timing?
I've never touched the BKT or MBT spark tables and kept it all stock. I did look closely at that and it had me puzzled because I didn't see any Knock Retard at the same boost levels in 1st and 2nd gears, it's only occuring in 3rd gear but it isn't increasing. In all of my logs, it can go as high as 7.5* (the limit of KR) but it will steadily decrease as my RPMs increase in 3rd gear. It looks bad, but when I reviewed my 100% stock factory tune, it would run into the same levels of KR in the same situations but at stock boost levels (8-11 psi). Using 93 octane with the stock tune would result in reducing that knock retard by about 4-6 degrees, I haven't tried 93 octane with the increased boost yet. I experimented with running different WOT lambdas to see if it'd have an impact on KR, but I didn't see any difference from 0.76 to 0.85
To run this down even further, I looked at the BKT for other EcoBoost engines (see attached) and basically only the SHO is running more timing than the other engines.
To run this down even further, I looked at the BKT for other EcoBoost engines (see attached) and basically only the SHO is running more timing than the other engines.
I would be concerned about seeing 7.5 because thats the stock limit of what the knock sensor can pull. If it needs to pull more, it can't. The only KR I want to see is at light loads on the stock tables because it's designed like that for emissions and fuel economy. I know you have seen the same thing at stock boost levels but what is safe at stock boost levels isn't necessarily safe with the boost cranked up.metroplex said:I've never touched the BKT or MBT spark tables and kept it all stock. I did look closely at that and it had me puzzled because I didn't see any Knock Retard at the same boost levels in 1st and 2nd gears, it's only occuring in 3rd gear but it isn't increasing. In all of my logs, it can go as high as 7.5* (the limit of KR) but it will steadily decrease as my RPMs increase in 3rd gear. It looks bad, but when I reviewed my 100% stock factory tune, it would run into the same levels of KR in the same situations but at stock boost levels (8-11 psi). Using 93 octane with the stock tune would result in reducing that knock retard by about 4-6 degrees, I haven't tried 93 octane with the increased boost yet.
I experimented with running different WOT lambdas to see if it'd have an impact on KR, but I didn't see any difference from 0.76 to 0.85
FoMoCoSHO said:I would be concerned about seeing 7.5 because thats the stock limit of what the knock sensor can pull. If it needs to pull more, it can't. The only KR I want to see is at light loads on the stock tables because it's designed like that for emissions and fuel economy. I know you have seen the same thing at stock boost levels but what is safe at stock boost levels isn't necessarily safe with the boost cranked up.metroplex said:I've never touched the BKT or MBT spark tables and kept it all stock. I did look closely at that and it had me puzzled because I didn't see any Knock Retard at the same boost levels in 1st and 2nd gears, it's only occuring in 3rd gear but it isn't increasing. In all of my logs, it can go as high as 7.5* (the limit of KR) but it will steadily decrease as my RPMs increase in 3rd gear. It looks bad, but when I reviewed my 100% stock factory tune, it would run into the same levels of KR in the same situations but at stock boost levels (8-11 psi). Using 93 octane with the stock tune would result in reducing that knock retard by about 4-6 degrees, I haven't tried 93 octane with the increased boost yet.
I experimented with running different WOT lambdas to see if it'd have an impact on KR, but I didn't see any difference from 0.76 to 0.85
Agreed in theory, but my factory stock tune would pull up to 7.5* as well (KR limit) and I mentioned this to AJPTurbo and other people without getting so much as an acknowledgement. After reading numerous threads on knock retard, it seems the bad knock retard is the one that climbs up and keeps climbing up. With the KR I'm seeing on the factory tune and on this tune, it climbs up and steadily drops only in 3rd gear. Using 93 octane alleviates the magnitude of the KR but there's still KR on the factory tune. I don't see much if any KR in 1st and 2nd gear running the same levels of boost or higher.
After comparing the SHO's factory BKT with the other EcoBoost engines' BKT's, it seems like Ford programmed in a bit more advance at the high load high RPM regions in the SHO than the other engines including the F-150's 3.5L EB. The Focus RS and Mustang 2.3L even have retarded timing at that region.
And here's a factory bone stock straight outta Chicago tune running 87 octane on a cold March day in Michigan, pulling 7.5* knock retard along with the tune I'm running at about the same speed/RPM/gear. The factory tune had more timing advance overall after the knock retard, but you can see the other tune flowing about 7 lb/min more air.
FWIW I used nothing but the cheapest dino 5W-30 that met the Ford specification, cheapest Fram oil filter, and the least expensive 87 octane in the SHO for the past 3 years. I did run 93 octane several times to gather data to see what effect it had on knock retard, and here is what I found (see attached). Basically it helped reduce it but there's still knock retard. The SHO just seems to come from the factory with more timing advance at the high boost region than the other EcoBoost engines/vehicles. Looking at vehicles like the Focus RS and the F-150 3.5L, they're running about more retarded timing in the same regions.
I'm open to solid ideas about reducing knock retard. Again, I haven't touched the spark tables at all.
I'm open to solid ideas about reducing knock retard. Again, I haven't touched the spark tables at all.
The tune looks to have a bit more KR than stock and is retarded 11.5 degrees compared to stock.
Everything being equal that 11.5 degrees is around -50 HP.
So it appears that as you are adding boost, it is taking timing.
I'm running similar boost with a bunch more timing with zero KR. (20% E with Nitro 93)
I did notice the last couple times I went back to stock I had zero KR but I suspect that's the corn.
Everything being equal that 11.5 degrees is around -50 HP.
So it appears that as you are adding boost, it is taking timing.
I'm running similar boost with a bunch more timing with zero KR. (20% E with Nitro 93)
I did notice the last couple times I went back to stock I had zero KR but I suspect that's the corn.
Stock airload never exceeded 1.40, so the timing was a bit higher but it is still pulling the max 7.5* limit with the stock tune on 87 octane. Basically, the timing values are much lower at the 1.80 airload. Looking at the stock F-150 3.5 EB timing tables, they are running maybe 10* less timing in the same regions.
Do you have any logs for your timing advance at WOT?
Do you have any logs for your timing advance at WOT?
Its telling you you are running too much boost for your fuel.metroplex said:FWIW I used nothing but the cheapest dino 5W-30 that met the Ford specification, cheapest Fram oil filter, and the least expensive 87 octane in the SHO for the past 3 years. I did run 93 octane several times to gather data to see what effect it had on knock retard, and here is what I found (see attached). Basically it helped reduce it but there's still knock retard. The SHO just seems to come from the factory with more timing advance at the high boost region than the other EcoBoost engines/vehicles. Looking at vehicles like the Focus RS and the F-150 3.5L, they're running about more retarded timing in the same regions.
I'm open to solid ideas about reducing knock retard. Again, I haven't touched the spark tables at all.
Couple ways to test....
Drop your boost and see if it gives you some timing back...
Add 3 gallons of corn and change your stoich point to 13.54
I can tell you for a fact that your fuel quality is the issue.
We got to revision 4 or 5 with crap gas and we were about done. Swapped the blend back to Nitro + corn and we're at revision 15 and we're not done. That's a very mild blend of 20%.
I did not tell my tuner in advance what fuel I had in it (I know, **** move but it just happened that way) until we became knock limited very quickly.
Here is revision 10, there is a multigear WOT and a 3rd gear from low RPM WOT (locked in 3rd)metroplex said:Stock airload never exceeded 1.40, so the timing was a bit higher but it is still pulling the max 7.5* limit with the stock tune on 87 octane. Basically, the timing values are much lower at the 1.80 airload. Looking at the stock F-150 3.5 EB timing tables, they are running maybe 10* less timing in the same regions.
Do you have any logs for your timing advance at WOT?
I've been spending a lot of time reading here...metroplex said:Where did you get the 50 hp / 11.5* from? I always read it was about 1-2 hp per degree of timing pulled.
http://kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Tech_Info_pg/layouts/techinfo2.htm
FoMoCoSHO said:I've been spending a lot of time reading here...metroplex said:Where did you get the 50 hp / 11.5* from? I always read it was about 1-2 hp per degree of timing pulled.
http://kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Tech_Info_pg/layouts/techinfo2.htm
http://zzperformance.com/blog/about-knock-retard-kr/
Fomo is a **** lol...its not a good idea to hood wink your tuner lol
Metro, if i didnt know any better i would say you want to blow your sho up...cheapest dino oil possible paired with 87 octane and 16 psi lol....i would ask why but really i dont care and dont want to know...honestly please don't elaborate
Metro, if i didnt know any better i would say you want to blow your sho up...cheapest dino oil possible paired with 87 octane and 16 psi lol....i would ask why but really i dont care and dont want to know...honestly please don't elaborate
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