Turn on / off pop with JBL MS8 and Sony

[ShoBoat]

JL used to make a drop in for the taurus. But it looks like it's discontinued. At over 1k just for the sub and enclosure I can't imagine why.
This is the only one I could still find.
http://www.gibbyselectronicsupermarket.ca/audio-stealthbox-sbftaurus13tw5-10up-ford-taurus-sbftaurus13tw5-p-8167.html


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[Lanson]

I just realized that this was an epic threadjack we just witnessed. 

Shoboat, maybe make a separate thread on this?  Awesome work though

 

[ShoBoat]

Sorry about the jack, I have made a separate post.

 

[ShoBoat]

There was a very specific wiring sequence in the install instructions. Which you probably already followed. Back in the day we used to use a time delay relay to trig amps when we had this issue. They are not cheap around $50.00 but you can set the delay if a proper trig cannot be found and cannot be corrected by any other method. Maybe as a last resort?


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[Lanson]

There was a very specific wiring sequence in the install instructions. Which you probably already followed. Back in the day we used to use a time delay relay to trig amps when we had this issue. They are not cheap around $50.00 but you can set the delay if a proper trig cannot be found and cannot be corrected by any other method. Maybe as a last resort?


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Another route would be to use the PAC TR-4, which is in itself a delay system, and powers off a signal generated, say, by a speaker wire or CAN bus signal.  Those are a whopping $10-15 bucks. 

But I do think the MS8's internal settings can do this...assuming it has been wired like I'm envisioning.

 

[ShoBoat]

Sweet let us know how you make out, I am thinking about pulling the trigger on the MS8 depending on how you make out.

 

[themetalmaster]

There was a very specific wiring sequence in the install instructions. Which you probably already followed. Back in the day we used to use a time delay relay to trig amps when we had this issue. They are not cheap around $50.00 but you can set the delay if a proper trig cannot be found and cannot be corrected by any other method. Maybe as a last resort?


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Another route would be to use the PAC TR-4, which is in itself a delay system, and powers off a signal generated, say, by a speaker wire or CAN bus signal.  Those are a whopping $10-15 bucks. 

But I do think the MS8's internal settings can do this...assuming it has been wired like I'm envisioning.

I'll keep that in mind as an option. I still get the pop with the delay set to 5 seconds. With the radio on, I can shut the car off and open the door (which kills the accessory power) and the speakers pop immediately, but the MS8 display stays on for another 5 seconds.

If it would help I will take some pictures of how I have it wired up. This is my first time working on a factory audio system as sophisticated as this, I may have made a rookie mistake.

The rain here in Atlanta killed my chance to take a look at the wiring this evening. Hopefully it will clear up by the morning.

Shoboat, I appreciate the courtesy of moving your thread. That's a pretty sick setup you have btw.

 

[ShoBoat]

Hey thanks, your setup is coming along nicely! Can't wait to see it done. Shoot some pics of the wiring as I tapped into mine already and I don't have the pop. I just can't seem to remember which wire I used for the trig. I'll look thorough my pics and see what I can find.


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[Lanson]

Let me cover how it is supposed to be wired, and you can compare your setup.

In general, the MS8 is the hub for EVERYTHING.  All inputs must go to it, and all outputs must come from it.  You need a remote turn on trigger (like the stock Sony subwoofer amp's turn on wire), but it doesn't need a full 12v if I remember what the manual said.  That needs to go to the Remote IN portion of the MS8.  All speaker wire inputs go to the MS8, and I chose all the channels and let the MS8 flatten and perfect the signal, which worked in my case.  Side note, the head unit should be switched out of surround mode if it has the option.  OK, so all inputs go to the MS8, and the outputs get redistributed back out to the proper speakers directly OR through amp(s).  You can NOT run the same channel (let's say channel 1) on both the built-in power AND an amp with an RCA at the same time.  You can also NOT do this with the inputs.  Each channel needs to be either on its own power (20W @ 4 ohm, 30W @ 2 ohm), or with an RCA cable to an amp. 

My concern is that you are powering the stock sub amp somehow.  That's a total no-go, because the MS8 can't properly feed a signal to the stock equipment for playback. 


If you don't have any amps right now, just use the stock MS8 power for everything, channel by channel.  It isn't a ton of power but it is enough to at least get you good sound, and you can make sure all is well with the system before adding complications. 


edit:  I got a chance to read your report on this, and it sounds right.  But apparently, that turn-on is wrong I think.  I'm digging through the OEM manual now for a 2011 w/ sony. 

While looking, be advised there is a rear parcel shelf speaker that is a CENTER channel for the rear, like a 6.1 DTS surround system could have.  My 2010 Sony-equipped Flex had similar, it actually used two 3.5" speakers in the back pillars, but they were wired mono parallel.  So it is similar.  That speaker is green/brown + and violet/brown -

So the pin you should be connected to I think is pin 1, a violet/red wire. 

Pin 3 is a SUBWOOFER wire!  Its the Right Rear (think, single sub but dual voice coil) + output.  THAT's IT!!!

 

[dalum]

I quickly read most of the posts  :boom: and you guys are making this too complicated.  If the MS8 is the only thing powering the speakers and the only thing you added...

From what Lanson said the MS8 has a turn on OUTPUT that can control other amps with a delay setting.  That wouldn't do anything to the MS8 itself and your problem is still the factory amp turning on after the MS8 is already on and supplying sound to the speakers.

You need to cut the wire going to the factory amp that you already tapped into for the MS8 turn on.  Cut it away from the connector so you have extra wire to work with (are room to work if you need to reconnect it later for selling the car).  So now the original wire you used will only be going to the MS8's turn-on input.  Now connect the MS8's turn-on output to the wire you cut going to your factory amp.  Now the delay setting in the MS8 will control how long the factory amp receives power after the MS8 does.

So the wire goes

car
|
|
|-> MS8 turn on input

x (cut)

|-> MS8 turn on output
|
|-> Factory amp

 

[Lanson]

We DID make it too complicated.

He used the wrong wire, a sub wire.

When he sees this and swaps the wires, I betcha it works perfectly.

 

[Lanson]

I quickly read most of the posts  :boom: and you guys are making this too complicated.  If the MS8 is the only thing powering the speakers and the only thing you added...

From what Lanson said the MS8 has a turn on OUTPUT that can control other amps with a delay setting.  That wouldn't do anything to the MS8 itself and your problem is still the factory amp turning on after the MS8 is already on and supplying sound to the speakers.

You need to cut the wire going to the factory amp that you already tapped into for the MS8 turn on.  Cut it away from the connector so you have extra wire to work with (are room to work if you need to reconnect it later for selling the car).  So now the original wire you used will only be going to the MS8's turn-on input.  Now connect the MS8's turn-on output to the wire you cut going to your factory amp.  Now the delay setting in the MS8 will control how long the factory amp receives power after the MS8 does.

So the wire goes

car
|
|
|-> MS8 turn on input

x (cut)

|-> MS8 turn on output
|
|-> Factory amp

Well that's not true though... you really can't use the factory amp.  It goes factory stuff IN to the MS8, and then MS8 out either speakers, or amps to power speakers.

 

[dalum]

Are you saying he has the factory amp speaker out and the MS8 speaker out both connected to the speakers?  Unless he seriously screwed up the wiring like that the thump is probably the factory system turning on after the MS8 is already on.  If the MS8 wasn't on it couldn't send the thump to the speakers.

As a test unhook the turn on lead to the MS8, turn the car and the stereo on (should be no thump).  Now touch the MS8's turn-on to +12.  If it thumps something is wrong in the MS8. 

 

[dalum]

Well that's not true though... you really can't use the factory amp.  It goes factory stuff IN to the MS8, and then MS8 out either speakers, or amps to power speakers.

It's my understanding you HAVE to use the factory amp.  Its the dsp/hub of the whole system and there isn't any line level audio to be grabbed anywhere.  High level signal from factory amp/dsp to high level input of MS8. 

I do see vt-gy/gy vt/ye as audio in left+, left-, right+, right- to the dsp/amp but I think this might just be the rca inputs from the front of the car.  I'm pretty sure other people have already tested this.

I was wrong earlier when I said the delayed remote out on the MS8 would fix it.  The factory amp is already turning on after the MS8 and the MS8 is amplifying that sound to the speakers (thump).  You need the MS8 to turn ON second but turn OFF first.

 

[dalum]

Here's the wiring for the sony amp/dsp from the Shop Manual.  Its for my 13 but should be the same as yours.

Lanson
So the pin you should be connected to I think is pin 1, a violet/red wire.

Pin 3 is a SUBWOOFER wire!  Its the Right Rear (think, single sub but dual voice coil) + output.  THAT's IT!!!

I see the "enable" wire as Violet/Red Pin 3 on 16 pin connecter using 9 wires.  It's labeled "cntrl mod - audio subwoffer/amplifier enable.  Flow chart says to check this wire for +12 when no audio is heard from any speakers.  But this dsp/amp is really the half the system and its just labeled poorly so he's using the correct turn on wire.  You're mixing up your pins on different connectors.

Pin 1 Violet is the right sub's + wire in a different 16 pin connector using 8 wires.  Another 16 pin connector using 16 wires has the rest of the speaker outs.

 

[dalum]

and just for shits and giggles here's the whole Audio system.

 

[themetalmaster]

Here's the wiring for the sony amp/dsp from the Shop Manual.  Its for my 13 but should be the same as yours.

Lanson
So the pin you should be connected to I think is pin 1, a violet/red wire.

Pin 3 is a SUBWOOFER wire!  Its the Right Rear (think, single sub but dual voice coil) + output.  THAT's IT!!!

I see the "enable" wire as Violet/Red Pin 3 on 16 pin connecter using 9 wires.  It's labeled "cntrl mod - audio subwoffer/amplifier enable.  Flow chart says to check this wire for +12 when no audio is heard from any speakers.  But this dsp/amp is really the half the system and its just labeled poorly so he's using the correct turn on wire.  You're mixing up your pins on different connectors.

Pin 1 Violet is the right sub's + wire in a different 16 pin connector using 8 wires.  Another 16 pin connector using 16 wires has the rest of the speaker outs.

I appreciate the input guys. I've got pictures of how I have this set up, because I don't think I'm communicating it clearly.

http://imgur.com/a/YWjco

Remote in is connected to pin 3 via wire tap. It is the violet with Red on the top connector of the Sony amp. This wire changes states when accessory power is turned on.

12v connected to battery with 4ga wire, fused in engine bay.
GND connected to chassis at factory ground point

Subs in the rear deck are disconnected at the speakers. All of the speakers in the car are plugged into the MS8 directly. I do not have any other amplifiers. I am using factory speakers.

 

[themetalmaster]

Ok, I tried what Dalum suggested and interrupted the violet wire on pin 3 so that the side coming from the car is going to remote in on the MS8 and the remote out of the MS8 is going to the same wire on the connector of the sony amp. I still get the speaker pop.
Like below:

CAR-----remote in MS8 ---- remote out MS8 --- Sony amp

If I don't connect the remote out in this configuration and the wire on pin 3 is interrupted, the Sony amp never turns on as I don't hear any music. But I still get speaker pop when I shut the car off. If I do connect the remote out, the Sony amp powers on and I hear music, and also speaker pop when I shut the car off or turn it on.

So now I'm thinking I have a bad MS8.

 

[ShoBoat]

Here's an idea, disconnect the trig wire from the ms8. Grab a constant 12v from another source. Do you have a simple switch laying around? If you do run the 12v constant to the switch and then to the trig on the ms8. This will allow you to test various scenarios. Turn on the system and then hit the switch, see if you get the pop. Try turning on the ms8 first and then the system and see if you get the pop. If you do in both cases a phone call to JBL may be in order.


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[Lanson]

Guys, it isn't pin 3. 

I'm staring at the 2011 Ford SHO OEM service manuals, and it shows
Pin 1 is enable/clip detect, a violet/red wire, coming from connector C4208A.  They call it the "Audio Amplifier".  It goes to unit "Audio Digital Signal Processing Module", ALSO connects on that side to Pin 1 connector C4326C. 

Here's where everybody might be messing up.  There SHOULD be a separate small amplifier that the subwoofer uses.  For my Flex, this is what I powered off of, and it was perfect.  You don't want to do a thing to the DSP processor amp.  The separate amp that is connected with that pin 1 I just spoke of, is your target.  The service manual section of Ford's manual states that the Sony setup has this separate audio amp for the sub only.  You want to completely disconnect this particular amp, steal its violet/red wire trigger, and leave the rest of that amp's wiring disconnected.  Then, the big DSP/amp will send a signal of turn-on to the MS8 AFTER it turns itself on. 

It may have changed dramatically for 2013...I know my Flex did.  I had to change my game up entirely when I went from my 2010 Flex to my 2013. 

edit:  I looked more at the manual's R&R section, the stupid DSP sits ON TOP of the stupid separate amp.  So, you'll be pulling off that connector under the DSP.  You don't want to screw with how the Sony DSP/amp turns on at all.  Just the other amp right behind it.  Remember, you were getting pops if you had the volume up at all.  Well, the MS8 doesn't care about volume it just plays whatever its given.  So yes... the wrong turn-on wire was used here.