e20 observation .. more HP but little TQ gains? why?

[StealBlueSHO]

It comes up with those numbers based look up tables and algorithms in the Ecu. The OEM has done the leg work with mapping out the power output at various loads. The values you see in livelink may vary from real world due to different mods to the car.

It's pretty complicated though. But it has to know the torque values to knock how much boost to command...It's a great system but their are flaws and it's the culprit for limp mode and the wrench light often.

Hey AJP,  do you know if there is any hazard of running a datalog from a config file that might not match your firmware?  I found 3 dmjk profiles in LiveLink and configed a datalog profile for some of the DMRs discussed and a few more.  But was concerned about causing issues with the ECU trying to read values that may be wrong from the wrong cells in memory ..

thoughts ?

No hazards.... they may just not read anything.

 

[TopherSho]

that's what i thought.  I will test and report.  if one of them works i will likely log a few runs at the Dragstrip in addition to the normal data logging for my analysis.

also plan on mythbusting the late-shift theory as well ..

 

[StealBlueSHO]

that's what i thought.  I will test and report.  if one of them works i will likely log a few runs at the Dragstrip in addition to the normal data logging for my analysis.

also plan on mythbusting the late-shift theory as well ..

Hmm... I think the shift point changes are only going to validate whether YOUR cars tune does better shifting early/late...

I have seen lots of different ways these cars are tuned and some don't carry the boost out like AJP does...

 

[TopherSho]

hmm 6 runs best of 13.09 at 105.  datalog is being weird and not logging everything.  just reloaded the config4.dlx from APJ.

will try another data log.

example of weird... touquesource read 32?

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Slips? What's the DA?

 

[lamrith]

DA should be pretty low, PIR is pretty much at sea level.  Just ran it and DA swung between -191 and -365ft between 3 and 6pm.  wacked out weather.

One handicap we have out here is max 92octane coupled with the treehuggers in EPA tend to mandate ethanol in fuel out here and our wet climate can lead to some water in the fuel and general poor fuel quality.  Not uncommon for stock vehicles to run poorly in winter due to fuel here...

Now where are the timeslips Topher!??  :chair:

 

[8nutz8]

that's what i thought.  I will test and report.  if one of them works i will likely log a few runs at the Dragstrip in addition to the normal data logging for my analysis.

also plan on mythbusting the late-shift theory as well ..

Hmm... I think the shift point changes are only going to validate whether YOUR cars tune does better shifting early/late...

I have seen lots of different ways these cars are tuned and some don't carry the boost out like AJP does...

FWIW Fomocosho emailed me the config file he uses on his 13+ and i tried to use it on my 2011 and the Torque DMR's didn't even show up on the X4. hopefully you'll have more compatibility.
as i said before keep an eye one fuel rail pressure when shifting early. but . . shifting early more or less might let you take advantage of the boost spike. my advice . . let the ECU do the shifting on the 1-2 and 2-3 shift then use manual shift on the 3-4 shift before you hit the traps. this MIGHT give you a nice high boost/load situation  an increase your trap speed at least. maybe you're E.T


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TopherSho]

hmm 6 runs best of 13.09 at 105.  datalog is being weird and not logging everything.  just reloaded the config4.dlx from APJ.

will try another data log.

example of weird... touquesource read 32?

I will post the best 3 slips tomorrow,  but short version is 13.09 which was the 1st run was the best.  after that the car settled in on 13.1x pretty much all night.

could not get the 60 under 1.975 so that is a big contributor.
 
another issue/contributor was really low spark advance.  during a run i saw the gauge drop to 12.x and stay there.. that killing the TQ on the back end. not sure what was up with it..

Then I fixed the damned SCT tuner by deleting then re-importing the config for logging.  but that was at the end of the night so i have very little logged.

posting logs. 

i am not really surprised,  my best 0-100 in the 11 data logging sessions during tuning pre-track day has been 11.75..  i kinda had a gut feeling wed be in the 13's or super high 12's. 

i have not looked ta the logs and i am way to tired after driving.. bed.

i had fun.  but i am a tad sad i could not get to 12.9  i will have to try again when the weather i warmer.

i did beat out a crap load of stock STI's, boosted 335,535 and a m3 beemers (boosted six).  there were a pile of bro-dozers that were super miffed at being passed by a sedan with a child seat in it   But i could not beat the mustangs that i was hoping to match, hang with or beat with a good launch.

tired ..

bed ..

 

[SHOwoosh]

for some reason your throttle is closing in first around 3200 and slowly opens to full around 5400. don't know why just something I noticed.

 

[lamrith]

hmm 6 runs best of 13.09 at 105.  datalog is being weird and not logging everything.  just reloaded the config4.dlx from APJ.

will try another data log.

example of weird... touquesource read 32?

I will post the best 3 slips tomorrow,  but short version is 13.09 which was the 1st run was the best.  after that the car settled in on 13.1x pretty much all night.

could not get the 60 under 1.975 so that is a big contributor.
 
another issue/contributor was really low spark advance.  during a run i saw the gauge drop to 12.x and stay there.. that killing the TQ on the back end. not sure what was up with it..

Then I fixed the damned SCT tuner by deleting then re-importing the config for logging.  But that was at the end of the night so i have very little logged.

posting logs. 

i am not really surprised,  my best 0-100 in the 11 data logging sessions during tuning pre-track day has been 11.75..  i kinda had a gut feeling wed be in the 13's or super high 12's. 

i have not looked ta the logs and i am way to tired after driving.. bed.

i had fun.  but i am a tad sad i could not get to 12.9  i will have to try again when the weather i warmer.

i did beat out a crap load of stock STI's, boosted 335,535 and a m3 beemers (boosted six).  there were a pile of bro-dozers that were super miffed at being passed by a sedan with a child seat in it   But i could not beat the mustangs that i was hoping to match, hang with or beat with a good launch.

tired ..

bed ..

Quick look at log #1 and your 0-60 time was 4.8  But there is a dip in mph on your 1-2shift.  More than I would have expected, you actually lost 4mph.  the 2-3 shift you lost .3mph

for some reason your throttle is closing in first around 3200 and slowly opens to full around 5400. don't know why just something I noticed.

That is not uncommon, that is the car limiting power after it spikes over desired boost.  If you look at throttle angle, desired boost and actual boost the throttle angle drops right as actual crosses desired.  AJP likes to bring in boost "RIGHT NOW" which is what makes his tunes so fun, but it can make boost spool in hard initially and  the ecu chops throttle to control it.  However look at the mph, the car is still accelerating out of the hole well.  That drop in mph at 1-2 shift though might be worth some research/tuning..

 

[TopherSho]

hmm 6 runs best of 13.09 at 105.  datalog is being weird and not logging everything.  just reloaded the config4.dlx from APJ.

will try another data log.

example of weird... touquesource read 32?

I will post the best 3 slips tomorrow,  but short version is 13.09 which was the 1st run was the best.  after that the car settled in on 13.1x pretty much all night.

could not get the 60 under 1.975 so that is a big contributor.
 
another issue/contributor was really low spark advance.  during a run i saw the gauge drop to 12.x and stay there.. that killing the TQ on the back end. not sure what was up with it..

Then I fixed the damned SCT tuner by deleting then re-importing the config for logging.  But that was at the end of the night so i have very little logged.

posting logs. 

i am not really surprised,  my best 0-100 in the 11 data logging sessions during tuning pre-track day has been 11.75..  i kinda had a gut feeling wed be in the 13's or super high 12's. 

i have not looked ta the logs and i am way to tired after driving.. bed.

i had fun.  but i am a tad sad i could not get to 12.9  i will have to try again when the weather i warmer.

i did beat out a crap load of stock STI's, boosted 335,535 and a m3 beemers (boosted six).  there were a pile of bro-dozers that were super miffed at being passed by a sedan with a child seat in it   But i could not beat the mustangs that i was hoping to match, hang with or beat with a good launch.

tired ..

bed ..

Quick look at log #1 and your 0-60 time was 4.8  But there is a dip in mph on your 1-2shift.  More than I would have expected, you actually lost 4mph.  the 2-3 shift you lost .3mph

for some reason your throttle is closing in first around 3200 and slowly opens to full around 5400. don't know why just something I noticed.

That is not uncommon, that is the car limiting power after it spikes over desired boost.  If you look at throttle angle, desired boost and actual boost the throttle angle drops right as actual crosses desired.  AJP likes to bring in boost "RIGHT NOW" which is what makes his tunes so fun, but it can make boost spool in hard initially and  the ecu chops throttle to control it.  However look at the mph, the car is still accelerating out of the hole well.  That drop in mph at 1-2 shift though might be worth some research/tuning..

In a number of datalogs while tuning i have seen that speed loss. it is super frustrating but it is for the sake of the powertrain.  i could have APJ tune that out but then the car would literally jam 383+ WTQ INSTANTLY into the PTU .. i cannot image that is good for long term car care.

 

[TopherSho]

A thing i did not mention last night because i wanted sleep,  this was a ''street'' setup on the car.

I wanted to know what the car actually does on the road non-prepped.  So this was a both a test to see where it's at 90% of the time..

Baby seat was in
street tires @ 31 pounds on all four
92 pump gas from Cheveron
floor mats in
spare tire in
tire gear in
full window washer
trunk insulation and tire cover was in

I could have dropped 100-105 pounds of weight, ran higher octane gas but that would not represent what the car does 90% of its life

so i do think 12.9 is doable with prep .. but i am hoping to figure out how to get 12.9 non-prepped.

 

[TopherSho]

Same tickets,  one with flash and one without.  car was SUPER consistent which i expected in a boosted AWD.

I could not get my RT's down either... in mg g35 i was a avg of .07 all 2015.  this car is harder to time for some reason.

 

[ajpturbo]

I will say I figured you would get high 12's pretty easy. But couple things I noticed..Even though the ambient temps were cool you must've idled a while. Your runs Iat2 started above 120 and even 130 and briefly cooled down as the run began but ended back up at 135. Your knock sensor was pretty flat in 2 runs but on run 1 you were still getting a lot of spark added which was good. You still had decent spark for pump 92, I saw mid teens up to about 18 degrees so that's good and I would guess that should've gave you 12's in the 1/4 at about 15 psi

You still get about 18.5 psi boost spike even with throttle control which is why I like to use it but they are mitigated faster when the throttle steps in

At 100 degrees IAT2 your spark is straight up from the tables and every 10 degree increase you will lose 1 degree from compensations..So you were losing about  2-4 degrees from that..If you don't do that you will just end up having the spark pulled from KR and you typically want the spark pulled before that happens....When spark is pulled from KR that's more of a last resort..so I'm guessing 2-4 degrees could've been worth 10-25hp maybe

I would say I don't focus on 1/4 mile. Sure there are a few things we could do....Reduce or eliminate tq reductions on shifts, maybe a little less throttle control, run more boost and disregaurd fuel pressure.

But I'd say 99.9% of the people that discuss tune options with me ALWAYS stress to me that they want SAFE & RELIABLE....So what's a tuner to do?

Another small thing I can't remember but I thought you had non PP....Many people have ran good times with non PP but I have to believe in apples to apples that PP is worth something in the 1/4 mile or it wouldn't have been done....Common drag mod to throw gears at a car.

 

[lamrith]

Great Info AJP, thanks for the breakdown and details. 

From what I recall on staging at PIR years ago, you tend to have to idle a bit typically in public run sessions, that or on off literally every minute as you creep in line as it moves forward.  Only way to counter that is to be 1st in line (or at least 1st 5) every session.

Yes we all tend to lean toward safe given many are DD.

Based on his MPH vs RPM I think he does have a nonPP.  His MPH are 10higher than mine ('13withPP) for similar rpm in 2nd..

 

[StealBlueSHO]

I will say I figured you would get high 12's pretty easy. But couple things I noticed..Even though the ambient temps were cool you must've idled a while. Your runs Iat2 started above 120 and even 130 and briefly cooled down as the run began but ended back up at 135. Your knock sensor was pretty flat in 2 runs but on run 1 you were still getting a lot of spark added which was good. You still had decent spark for pump 92, I saw mid teens up to about 18 degrees so that's good and I would guess that should've gave you 12's in the 1/4 at about 15 psi

You still get about 18.5 psi boost spike even with throttle control which is why I like to use it but they are mitigated faster when the throttle steps in

At 100 degrees IAT2 your spark is straight up from the tables and every 10 degree increase you will lose 1 degree from compensations..So you were losing about  2-4 degrees from that..If you don't do that you will just end up having the spark pulled from KR and you typically want the spark pulled before that happens....When spark is pulled from KR that's more of a last resort..so I'm guessing 2-4 degrees could've been worth 10-25hp maybe

I would say I don't focus on 1/4 mile. Sure there are a few things we could do....Reduce or eliminate tq reductions on shifts, maybe a little less throttle control, run more boost and disregaurd fuel pressure.

But I'd say 99.9% of the people that discuss tune options with me ALWAYS stress to me that they want SAFE & RELIABLE....So what's a tuner to do?

Another small thing I can't remember but I thought you had non PP....Many people have ran good times with non PP but I have to believe in apples to apples that PP is worth something in the 1/4 mile or it wouldn't have been done....Common drag mod to throw gears at a car.

I have never asked for safe and reliable lol.... I want it all... and I want it now....

To the OP... consistent times such as yours are worth their in weight in gold...

 

[TopherSho]

I will say I figured you would get high 12's pretty easy. But couple things I noticed..Even though the ambient temps were cool you must've idled a while. Your runs Iat2 started above 120 and even 130 and briefly cooled down as the run began but ended back up at 135. Your knock sensor was pretty flat in 2 runs but on run 1 you were still getting a lot of spark added which was good. You still had decent spark for pump 92, I saw mid teens up to about 18 degrees so that's good and I would guess that should've gave you 12's in the 1/4 at about 15 psi

You still get about 18.5 psi boost spike even with throttle control which is why I like to use it but they are mitigated faster when the throttle steps in

At 100 degrees IAT2 your spark is straight up from the tables and every 10 degree increase you will lose 1 degree from compensations..So you were losing about  2-4 degrees from that..If you don't do that you will just end up having the spark pulled from KR and you typically want the spark pulled before that happens....When spark is pulled from KR that's more of a last resort..so I'm guessing 2-4 degrees could've been worth 10-25hp maybe

I would say I don't focus on 1/4 mile. Sure there are a few things we could do....Reduce or eliminate tq reductions on shifts, maybe a little less throttle control, run more boost and disregaurd fuel pressure.

But I'd say 99.9% of the people that discuss tune options with me ALWAYS stress to me that they want SAFE & RELIABLE....So what's a tuner to do?

Another small thing I can't remember but I thought you had non PP....Many people have ran good times with non PP but I have to believe in apples to apples that PP is worth something in the 1/4 mile or it wouldn't have been done....Common drag mod to throw gears at a car.

Damn temps!

Thank you APJ, your work is stellar and I am happy! 

I wish I could hit 12's in street prep but every car is different and I knew that going in .. you rocked the socks off this rig and took it from an estimated 280whp/270wtq to a est DynoJet of 340whp/430wtq .. and from a 14.1 1/4 mile to 1/10th away from 12's  in non-preped car on a 92 pump tune.

As a guy who spent money building a g35 na engine .. you cannot beat 600$ for +60whp and +160wtq on PUMP GAS.  And .. I have -0-  fear of blowing it up. 

Awesome.

And I noted earlier the track was cold, and I did not like the gas.  I really do think 12.9 is possible in warmer weather. 

 

[StealBlueSHO]

I will say I figured you would get high 12's pretty easy. But couple things I noticed..Even though the ambient temps were cool you must've idled a while. Your runs Iat2 started above 120 and even 130 and briefly cooled down as the run began but ended back up at 135. Your knock sensor was pretty flat in 2 runs but on run 1 you were still getting a lot of spark added which was good. You still had decent spark for pump 92, I saw mid teens up to about 18 degrees so that's good and I would guess that should've gave you 12's in the 1/4 at about 15 psi

You still get about 18.5 psi boost spike even with throttle control which is why I like to use it but they are mitigated faster when the throttle steps in

At 100 degrees IAT2 your spark is straight up from the tables and every 10 degree increase you will lose 1 degree from compensations..So you were losing about  2-4 degrees from that..If you don't do that you will just end up having the spark pulled from KR and you typically want the spark pulled before that happens....When spark is pulled from KR that's more of a last resort..so I'm guessing 2-4 degrees could've been worth 10-25hp maybe

I would say I don't focus on 1/4 mile. Sure there are a few things we could do....Reduce or eliminate tq reductions on shifts, maybe a little less throttle control, run more boost and disregaurd fuel pressure.

But I'd say 99.9% of the people that discuss tune options with me ALWAYS stress to me that they want SAFE & RELIABLE....So what's a tuner to do?

Another small thing I can't remember but I thought you had non PP....Many people have ran good times with non PP but I have to believe in apples to apples that PP is worth something in the 1/4 mile or it wouldn't have been done....Common drag mod to throw gears at a car.

Damn temps!

Thank you APJ, your work is stellar and I am happy! 

I wish I could hit 12's in street prep but every car is different and I knew that going in .. you rocked the socks off this rig and took it from an estimated 280whp/270wtq to a est DynoJet of 340whp/430wtq .. and from a 14.1 1/4 mile to 1/10th away from 12's  in non-preped car on a 92 pump tune.

As a guy who spent money building a g35 na engine .. you cannot beat 600$ for +60whp and +160wtq on PUMP GAS.  And .. I have -0-  fear of blowing it up. 

Awesome.

And I noted earlier the track was cold, and I did not like the gas.  I really do think 12.9 is possible in warmer weather.

Damn nut huggers.... (inside joke)

 

[TopherSho]

That last 10th of a second is $%^&ing killing me... it is all i can think about...

I think i'm bitten ..

Sending you mail AJP

 

[TopherSho]

That last 10th of a second is $%^&ing killing me... it is all i can think about...

I think i'm bitten ..

Sending you mail AJP

AJP has come through with a few edits because he is awesome.  will test the 0-106mph times .. WHEN IT STOPS RAINING

10% precipitation my ass..  damn PNW.

Edits are :

pushing to 15PSI with words of caution on rail pressure in the winter. (which i'm good with,  datalogged 12'f looked great)
20% less TQ reductions for lower gears understanding that this is harder on the whole system.

damn rain.