Hey SBS! I am thinking of meth for intake cooling.. need your suggestions

[TopherSho]

Think a plan is coming together now. 

I don't need the tank, I think i will re-use the existing washer bottle.  My thought is to t-off the outgoing line from the wash bottle,  and feed that second line to the pump.  The only issue will be that it is not gravity feed as listed on the site.. but i cant see it being a huge issue.  That solves where to store the goo.  Then i'll top off the washer filler with a locking cap of some sort so the dealership does not top it off with regular fluid.

I will replace the outgoing line from the tank to the t-junction with something better and stiffer that will not collapse if warm when under suction. 

From there the pump can be almost anywhere on the left hand side, which is ideal since the injection point will be in the collar right before the blade,  or grommet (despite my dislike of the rubber hose mounting) the rubber hose i will replace later. 

After that its all routing wires and deciding on how to tap the ?boost boost source? which is not very clear in the diagram.  How are people plugging into the boost to trigger the pressure switch?  or did everyone go with the 499$ kit and tap the IAT2/MAP 5v wire?

Lots of people use the stock washer tank for both so you are good to go there.  Not sure about the T off the stock setup.  I would want a dedicated feed line from tank to pump.  You will still want to install a low level warning sensor as well or do you plan to just let the dash idiot lite do that?
You can probably mount the pump on the right side next to the washer tank since you are using the OEM washer tank.  The pump is big but not that big.  I can get you rough dimensions tonight since mine is in the box under my desk.  Then you do not have to run hoses back and forth.

I can't help on the reference point since I went MAP and have not even installed it yet.

Yup a simple 2 poll switch on the 12v will do that for a shut off.  As to break fixing I think well see more issues with leaks than hardware failures.  So the ability to pop the hood and tighten lines would be ideal.   

If the pump dies well it solves itself and just stops working.

Yeah I am just thinking of using keyed switches I have from another project.  No extra $ spent and keeps people from fiddling with things they shouldn't! :bangin:

Yea dead pump not much you can do.  Still need to make sure to retune the car though, and since I always have tuner I just plan on not even fiddling with meth system on side of road regardless of what is wrong with it.  But that's just me, I am usually on a schedule when I am driving around and no time to tinker.

I'm not worried about loss of fluid or pump.  For right now I'm going to only install the smaller fogger and not make the car dependant on meth.  I am just looking to keep the IAT2 as low as I can without re-tuning. 

I can hit 21 degrees spark right now when it's not sunny out so I think it will be"good enough" with just the pump and no extra tuning.

 

[TopherSho]

I got interested in this too. I'm at $112 (snow performance) in parts and still looking at pumps. Since we have plastic piping, is a meth nozzle adapter required? or is there enough plastic to thread in the nozzle?

From what I have read recently the plastic in the stock piping by the TB is not thick enough to hold the nozzle.  I thought that is what everyone did, but a recent thread the nozzle immediately pulled out of the plastic.  I am thinking I will use the SNOW grommet they make for silicon tubing just to be safe.

Yeah I will be using the grommet as well when this happens. Seems safer.  I will get hit pipes later and remount then

 

[TopherSho]

    Ok..... here is another set of my opinions....

I used my current WW tank for meth fluid, and used the supplied tank in the kit for WW fluid.. yes, I moved the WW pump to the new tank...

If I had to do it again... I would mount the pump and tank in the trunk... yes it's further away... yes it costs a bit more in fuel lines... HOWEVER... it stay s much cooler back there. If something leaks, it's not right in the hot engine bay... also I wouldn't need to take the front clip off to service the pump... and I could use a bigger meth tank vs the ww reservoir...

Also, the stock plastic charge pipe is fine, at least with the Alky Control Kit... I can't speak for the other kits nozzles...

If he pipe can hold that dumbass noise maker, it can hold a nozzle... you  just need to be precise when making the hole. I had to the thread the nozzle into the plastic hole I drilled, then it has a washer on both sides for support. No issues yet... and with the tuning I have been doing.. if it was gonna let loose it would have done so.

Look at BPDs how too, it is very good. Also, tap into the wiring on the stock MAP harness on the intake manifold for boost reference. It's THE best way to do it. BPDs instructions are solid on what to do for that...

Anyway... good luck!!

I do want to do this in the trunk.. but the snow-rep was concerned about the resistance to push fluid that far ahead maintaining pressure... Jury is still out.  If I go trunk I need a bigger tank that will drive the cost up.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

    Ok..... here is another set of my opinions....

I used my current WW tank for meth fluid, and used the supplied tank in the kit for WW fluid.. yes, I moved the WW pump to the new tank...

If I had to do it again... I would mount the pump and tank in the trunk... yes it's further away... yes it costs a bit more in fuel lines... HOWEVER... it stay s much cooler back there. If something leaks, it's not right in the hot engine bay... also I wouldn't need to take the front clip off to service the pump... and I could use a bigger meth tank vs the ww reservoir...

Also, the stock plastic charge pipe is fine, at least with the Alky Control Kit... I can't speak for the other kits nozzles...

If he pipe can hold that dumbass noise maker, it can hold a nozzle... you  just need to be precise when making the hole. I had to the thread the nozzle into the plastic hole I drilled, then it has a washer on both sides for support. No issues yet... and with the tuning I have been doing.. if it was gonna let loose it would have done so.

Look at BPDs how too, it is very good. Also, tap into the wiring on the stock MAP harness on the intake manifold for boost reference. It's THE best way to do it. BPDs instructions are solid on what to do for that...

Anyway... good luck!!

I do want to do this in the trunk.. but the snow-rep was concerned about the resistance to push fluid that far ahead maintaining pressure... Jury is still out.  If I go trunk I need a bigger tank that will drive the cost up.

I cannot speak for snow. I did talk to Julio at Alky Control who informed me that his pump has no issues with a trunk mounted setup...

 

[TopherSho]

I cannot speak for snow. I did talk to Julio at Alky Control who informed me that his pump has no issues with a trunk mounted setup...

What are your pumps metrics/rates?

 

[hawkeye93]

I cannot speak for snow. I did talk to Julio at Alky Control who informed me that his pump has no issues with a trunk mounted setup...

My trunk-mounted Alky pump does just fine.

 

[TopherSho]

I cannot speak for snow. I did talk to Julio at Alky Control who informed me that his pump has no issues with a trunk mounted setup...

My trunk-mounted Alky pump does just fine.

Mind telling me metrics on your pump?

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Here the link to the pump on Alky Controls website...

https://www.alkycontrol.com/product-page/alkycontrol-methanol-injection-modified-pump

From the website.

"Alkycontrol Methanol Injection Pump. Custom modified in-house with special valving, additional gaskets, stainless steel hardware, weather pack termination, and run-in cycling. Pump motor case is sealed to resist water from entering armature/brush assemblies.

This is the best pump on the market, pressure tests on this pump are performed using a 15 GPH nozzle using water. Dont be confused with smaller motor pumps claiming 150 PSI using a 1 GPH nozzle. Pump will generate over 250 PSI to pass our stringent tests. This is a custom piece, that requires time and materials to build. Not an of the shelf item with a sticker change. This pump design has been on many 1000+ RWHP applications using low octane pump gas.

A variable speed controller must be used with this pump. Amperage draw can exceed 13 amps at full output. Be sure your controller can handle this amperage. Any questions, please ask.

Head on pump has no issues with 100% methanol. Any mix of water/alcohol is allowed. New cover preve"

 

[TopherSho]

Here the link to the pump on Alky Controls website...

https://www.alkycontrol.com/product-page/alkycontrol-methanol-injection-modified-pump

From the website.

"Alkycontrol Methanol Injection Pump. Custom modified in-house with special valving, additional gaskets, stainless steel hardware, weather pack termination, and run-in cycling. Pump motor case is sealed to resist water from entering armature/brush assemblies.

This is the best pump on the market, pressure tests on this pump are performed using a 15 GPH nozzle using water. Dont be confused with smaller motor pumps claiming 150 PSI using a 1 GPH nozzle. Pump will generate over 250 PSI to pass our stringent tests. This is a custom piece, that requires time and materials to build. Not an of the shelf item with a sticker change. This pump design has been on many 1000+ RWHP applications using low octane pump gas.

A variable speed controller must be used with this pump. Amperage draw can exceed 13 amps at full output. Be sure your controller can handle this amperage. Any questions, please ask.

Head on pump has no issues with 100% methanol. Any mix of water/alcohol is allowed. New cover preve"

OK that is what I figured.

Hmm more $$ .. then it will be done right the first time.

 

[BOT_ROCKET]

If it's just cooler temps you're after, particularly at idle, why not just go with a co2 intercooler sprayer? I've been debating rigging one up for myself.

edit: DEI has the CryO2 kit for 370ish on Amazon, and you can add a fuel chiller into the same system if you were so inclined. You could also do it yourself a lot cheaper. As long as you get a decent solenoid, lines, and fittings, you should be fine with a cheaper bottle, home made sprayer, and wires/switches.

 

[ZSHO]

Good-Info can be found here. Z

http://www.mysubie.com/faq?id=39

 

[polskifacet]

pop a few ice cubes in the windshield washer tank if your gonna go out for some wot runs. my plan is a pieced together snow performance kit and running straight windshield washer fluid. running to the truck seems so much more work.

 

[ajpturbo]

So when you mention on some kits you can tap into the MAP wire harness for boost reference how does that work?...How is the Meth controller interpreting that signal? I'm kind of asking What are you doing with that signal?

 

[TopherSho]

So when you mention on some kits you can tap into the MAP wire harness for boost reference how does that work?...How is the Meth controller interpreting that signal? I'm kind of asking What are you doing with that signal?

My understanding it sends out a variable voltage,  and the unit keys of that.  higher boost == higher voltage .. I am still torn.  sending units go bad all the time.  A physical switch appeals to me more. 

But still pondering.

I am going to go trunk mounted though for the pump and tank.  easy access for maintenance.  it will be a big chunk of change more though for the braided rated hose stuff.

still researching ...

 

[TopherSho]

If it's just cooler temps you're after, particularly at idle, why not just go with a co2 intercooler sprayer? I've been debating rigging one up for myself.

edit: DEI has the CryO2 kit for 370ish on Amazon, and you can add a fuel chiller into the same system if you were so inclined. You could also do it yourself a lot cheaper. As long as you get a decent solenoid, lines, and fittings, you should be fine with a cheaper bottle, home made sprayer, and wires/switches.

Lots of options were considered but meth will be more effective for track days in my opinion.  I liked the idea of a chiller killer... but it does not solve high IAT2 about half-way through the run.  So for similar pricing i can keep my 20-21 degree timing for the full run.  i think i like that more..

 

[ajpturbo]

Yes but you like any voltage signal you need to know the scale of what voltage represents what pressure and enter that linear scale into the meth controller you use..That scale is available but havent' seen anyone talk about how they are setting up their controller when doing it that way.

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Yes but you like any voltage signal you need to know the scale of what voltage represents what pressure and enter that linear scale into the meth controller you use..That scale is available but havent' seen anyone talk about how they are setting up their controller when doing it that way.

It's easy enough..look at the logs you get... we measure boost kpa and voltage from the map... there is your scale...

Alky sends a nice write up with their kits.... i will post it..

Most forced inductions users of Alky Control are Grand Nationals... there is a metric crap ton of information on their forums on how to tune the Alky kits...

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Ok, here is what I got from Julio as far as tuning it...

Here is a picture of the controller adjustment knobs... credit BPD1511 for this picture as I am too lazy to go take my own...

There is a "Turn On" and "Initial" rheostat. The "Turn On" rheostat is queued off the MAP sensor via voltage. You are supposed to use a voltmeter on the rheostat soldered end while on a dyno (or have a friend ride shotgun doing it for you...) or using the test button on the controller to set at which KPA(voltage) the pump kicks on..

Quote from Julio... and I verified he is correct via datalogs...

"Typically most 3 bar map sensors will move from 1.6 volts at zero psi to 4.8 volts at 30 psi
That's about .1 volt per psi boost. So 4 psi is 2.0 volts or close enough
The Turnon knob has a solder spot on its 12 o'clock position. Put a D.C. Voltmeter red lead at 12 o'clock and black lead ground, adjust for 2.0 and it's set to 4 psi"

That is how to set when the pump turns on...

There are two other adjustments that need to be made.. There is the "Initial" Rheostat sets the prelim ramp from start to finish... and then there is this... (Again... too lazy to take my own pictures.. credit this one to BPD1151)

This controller has the  gain setings which dictates how fast/how much the meth ramps up while you are spraying or slope... I asked Julio if there was a best practice for this and here is his response..

"Initial and Gain play with each other and have a direct correlation to battery voltage on vehicle. Simply said adjust for no knock activity"

He gives an analogy in the instructions he sent..

"Simplest analogy is a bicycle ramp. You put 1 block on the front and 3 blocks on the back. Increasing initial is like adding 3 blocks to both front and back of ramp..same angle. Increasing gain is like 1 block added to the front and 4 to the back of the ramp, making it more aggressive. The length of your ramp is simply the turn on point vs max signal. So if you start at 8 psi and run 20 psi... thats 12 psi of increse. If you moved "turnon" from 8 psi to 12 psi, now you would have the same meth at 24 than you had at 20.... moved 4 psi. Make Sense? So if you run 20 psi boost, and you activate at 8... if you move your turnon to 10 and stay at teh same boost, you'll put in less meth since your ramp is only 10 psi long vs 12 it was before. To offset the shorter ramp, simply move the Gain up to compensate."

also

"I like to set my turn on point at 25-33% of the boost run. So 20 psi boost..I like 7 PSI. I like to see Gain settings no less than 5 as it can make the system lazy waking up. Initial I like to see no less than 11:45-12:00.. same lazy syndrome."

He also goes on to state...

"Dont worry about IAT..worry about knock. I have never seen a datalog on a fast car that the IAT stays flat. They all climb. Its just that it climbs less with the meth"

So how did I set it up you might ask? Simply put... I have configured it on LMS's tune and Brads tune... for me it takes about 20 minutes or so using my laptop to datalog through my SCT x4 so I can view real time feeds to make the adjustments... Do a couple slow accelerations while the boost building and monitor the LEDS that came with the Alky kit.. when it hits green I make a note of which KPA it kicked on at.. now I know when it kicks on...

Then I like to do a 3rd gear pull.. I monitor knock, AFR, and STFT... the STFT lets me know how much I am spraying throughout the run...and if I need to make any adjustments based on knock... If my trims are pulling a TON of fuel during the inital kick on the Meth, I adjust the initial back as long as I don't have any knock...

once I get that done, I monitor the rest of the pull for knock and adjust gain accordingly.. once I can get several runs in in where there is no KR then I am done adjusting the kit. My STFT's tell me how much fuel I am offsetting with Methanol... The idea is to just spray enough to stop the knock retard and no more... if you are spraying more than you need, then you are potentially hurting power production from running too rich...

Back to the voltage question... Here is diagram graciously provided by BPD1151 in his original write up for installing the alky kits..

I used a razor, electrical tape, and a soldering iron to tap into that sensor... Since there is quite a bit of heat build up under the hood, it is required that you actually solder the additional signal wire to the original. If you rig with plastic a coupler you are asking for a failure...

The kit comes with an a appropriate gauge GREEN wire that you use to tap into your MAP sensor that then runs to the controller inside the car.. yes it has to go through the fire wall..

Final thoughts...

The materials in this kit are phenomenal... and its rated for any methanol mix you throw at it..  Snow is rated at 50/50 based on the fittings and hoses. This is what they told me when I called them... and I like not having to buy mixed or have to mix my fluids... I found that out while running E20 mixes.. I hated having to worry about the proper mix...

You CAN by Snow Boost Juice which is premixed 49 Meth / 51 Water but its $$$ compared to straight M1..

The controller on the Snow Stage 2 IS pretty cool and provides vastly more information than the Alky Kit.. and the Snow kit APPEARS to be much easier to install.. but I read several cases where the Snow controllers have failed. I have YET to find anyone claiming their Alky Controller has failed. So while it may not be as flashy... it appears to be very reliable which is more important to me when injecting meth..

That said, if you DO NOT have a way of monitoring your vehicles health with a a decent tool, then this kit is not for you OR go pay LMS to dyno tune it. Your MyCalibrator from LMS will NOT assist you in anyway what so ever in tuning for this kit. I use my SCTx4 to monitor and make adjustments, but if you are not comfortable reading datalogs, find a tuner who will help you AND understands how the Alky Kit works...

Brad has mentioned in a couple emails he really likes how the Alky Kit delivers the meth and controls the spray.. or it could just be that I know what I am doing on my end.. or I am just really lucky... lol

I did months of research of talking to people and companies before deciding on Alky... reputation is bar none...

I hope this helps!!!

Attached are pictures of what my tap looks like...

 

[bpd1151]

Thanks for the proper props there SBS. Truly much appreciated.

Great explanation you provided. Hope all the work I did years ago, coupled with your contributions to date on this subject matter, that all involved parties benefit accordingly.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[TopherSho]

Thank you EVERYONE,  it is all helping to build a final plan and proposal ..