High Knock Retard on Stock 16 X-Sport

1

16MagSport

New member
This is really disappointing.  I want to run a tune in this thing but it doesn't look like I can.  I loaded an 87 octane tune with an SCT X4 and it detonated with 91 octane in the tank, so I put the stock tune back in and logged that.  This thing will hit 7 on knock WOT with the stock tune running 91 octane.  I tried multiple stations after running the tank dry, so it should not be fuel unless it is all Cali fuel. The logs show it wanting to get the advance down to 10 on multiple logs.  It is higher in 1st and 2nd, but in third when the load is higher it always gets down around 10 on advance.  I looked at a log from a stock 17 and it is running 16-19 degrees in second gear and 14-17 degrees through 3rd.  After only running about 5 minutes, mine was 15-18 in 2nd and 10.5-14.5 in 3rd with knock reaching 3.75 in 3rd.  This looked better so I was feeling some hope.  Then, 45 minutes later after running a tight windy road, 3rd had 10-13 advance with knock peaking at 3.  It must have been commanding a lower base timing because of warming IAT's or ECT's.  I did another run a couple minutes later and it had 9-11 degress in 3rd and the knock peaked at 7.5 at the top of 2nd and through the shift to third.  For the first couple hundred RPM in 3rd after the shift retard, it was only 5 degrees.  The Sport is all stock with only 6k miles.  WTF is up with this thing?

What could the factory have f'd up on this thing causing it to run on 91 octane like it is 84 octane?  I don't think it is false knock detection
since I heard audible knock with the tune.  Lambda is rich at 0.78 to 0.82 so fueling looks good.  The load is maxed so the MAP is good.  I have not logged any part throttle stuff.
Thanks
 
How many miles on your XSport?  What is the maintenance history?    Have you checked for oil pooling in the intake tubes and/or intercooler?

Whose tune are you running?  Unleashed, LME, someone else's?  Where are you located?  What are the environmental conditions under which you logged KR?
 
Have you checked the plug gap? Some of the Ecoboost plugs come wildly varied from the factory. If your tuned you want your gap at .030
Instead of the factory 35.
Some have had their factory gap vary from .032 -.040.


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6000 miles. 
Oil changed at 2k to Mobil 1.  Changing again this weekend.
Plugs gapped to 0.028
Stock tune logged.
Sea Level in Northern Cali 80 degrees
Union and Chevron 91 only ever in the car
Trying to decide if I should go to Sonoma Raceway and fill up with 100 octane to see if KR goes to 0 or put 87 in it and see if it detonates.  If it detonates on 87 then I can take it to the dealer.  However, what are the chances they would actually find something and how much damage would they do beating the hell out of it making it detonate while they troubleshoot?  I bet they would just tell me I got bad fuel.


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No codes.  Plugs were 0.030-0.032 stock.  I put them at 0.028.  As far as I know, too wide a gap should only cause no detonation from spark blowout at high boost, not pre-detonation from lighting off too soon.


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Oh, I did take the intake elbow off and looked through the throttlebody and could not see any signs of oil.  The only thing I could think of is either the intake temps are too high, but I don't think Ford bypassed the intercooler lol, or the PCV was throwing oil mist in there causing the effective octane to drop.


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KR on the stock tune is normal.

Cali gas is the worst, do you have E85 around you?

Are you using TOP TIER fuel? There is a huge difference in knock resistance.

If you are using the SCT canned tune, scrap it and get a real tune, their canned tunes are garbage.
 
There are compensations for IAT2 temps and ECT.

Stock IAT2 spark compensations start at 160 IIRC.

There really is no normal IAT2 but our intercooler is in a very inefficient location. That coupled with high heat, humidity, and an engine that runs hot, will get you to 160 easily.

 
FoMoCoSHO said:
If you are using the SCT canned tune, scrap it and get a real tune, their canned tunes are garbage.
Click to expand...

I would guess that this is the primary issue.  I've heard the canned tunes are horrible.  They just blindly increase timing and boost and hope the car survives.  Makes for a very bad combo with the bad Cali fuel.

I've heard great things about ACES fuel treatment as a possible solution.  My understanding is that E85 is very readily available in Cali as well.

If you are running the canned tune, get it back to stock before there's damage.  Then work with a reputable tuner to come up with a safe tune with your fuel of choice.  At minimum, I would run 91 octane from a top tier supplier.
 
STOCK TUNE!  I am using the SCT to datalog the stock tune.  I have seen 7.5 KR on the STOCK TUNE.  That can't be right.  This is with top tier 91 Cali fuel.  E85 is nowhere near me.  It is supposed to be able to run on 87, but it wouldn't be able to retard enough to keep from pre-detonating.  I tried an *** 87 tune on 91 octane and I heard detonation.  So, I went back to stock and logged KR.  Not good.  A fellow racer with an *** 15 F150 is running 12.60 on the same shitty fuel.  It has to be something else.  I would love to see a log from a stock Cali Sport on our crap 91. 
 
Well, let's see the logs you have for the stock tune, in full.  Don't know how many parameters you are logging, be ready to do a couple more logs if need be.
 
I'll attach some when I get home.  I know there are compensations for IAT's and probably ECT's as well, which is why I gave total advance numbers as well as the knock.  It will dip below 10 degrees total advance occasionally in 80 degree weather.  My logs include a lot of parameters.


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Here are a few logs from last week.  I took off from the house and did the first log on the on ramp, so it was only running about 5-10 mins.  The next log was after running on a tight windy road.  The road was unlevel.  I turned around and went the other way for the last log, which was withing a few minutes of the previous and the knock went way up.  The difference between the two would be where the road was uphill vs downhill.  I think 3rd was uphill in the last log so the actual load would be higher.  Maybe that is the difference.  The on-ramp was level ground.

Thanks
 
Looks pretty normal and absolute load (which follows torque) is similar to other stock logs I've seen.

Personally I think the stock KR is caused from being pig rich and the cylinders are getting too wet.

Looks like the 91 helped, looks like max KR was 3.75.

In 3rd you can see at the highest KR it pulled some timing but started giving it back as it subsided.

IMO, everything is fine.
 
Heat soak may be a factor here?  Trans fluid level checked (within the cross-hatch on the dipstick)?  With a LOR of near -1, fuel is not the issue.  Maybe you should try 1 gal/tank of E85 and see what difference that makes to the drive/logs.
 
Did you see the last log where it had knock set to 7.5 and only had 5 degrees advance?  That doesn't seem right.

I need something else explained.  Look at time 12.5sec.  This is just after the 300ms of shift retard for the 2nd to 3rd shift.  After that, it is only at 6.5 advance with knock at 7.25.  At time 13.3 sec the knock only went down to 7.00 but the advance went up to 10.0.  What told it to go up the extra 3 degrees?  All the temps went up and the load stayed pegged.  Maybe it was the change in boost level, but that is pretty marginal.

Does anyone have copies of the stock spark tables?  I am guessing there is a base spark table, then modifiers based on IAT and ECT, and then what else is there?

Thanks
 
I was going to take it to the drag strip Wednesday and put some 100 octane in and see what happens to the log, but they aren't racing this week.  This was my last chance since the kids go back to school next week and I have to pick them up.  Anyway, E85 is not near me.  I may add some octane booster.  I need to research that.  My buddy said something about Torco or something like that, but he didn't use it with direct injection.  I need to make sure that the Ecoboost is okay with whatever I use.  I really just want to put the high octane stuff in at the track. 

I was thinking that maybe my crank position sensor is off a few degrees and it is actually more advanced than it thinks.  Is that possible?  If it was, should it have run quicker than my best bone stock pass of 14.56 @ 94.6 mph at sea level?

The other option is to run 87 in it and see if it pings.  If it does, something isn't right.  The manual says you can run 87.  If the knock retard runs out of range and can't retard it enough to keep from pinging, then something is wrong.  What do you think?

Thanks
 
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