Livernois Motorsports 3.5 Ecoboost engine build with upgraded rods and pistons

I'm sorry.....  I couldn't help but to interject a little humor into the equation, by posting some much requested....... DATA!

To that end, hope this satisfies the thirst accordingly.....

Emotional Data.....


Awesome Data.....


Now, Now.... Let's Play Nice Data.....


Quizzical Data.....


Hysterical Data.....


Commingling Data.....


Soft, Cuddly, Loving Data.....

 
Excellent data lol. The question was asked in a different thread.. the announcement thread on tgd release of pistons and rods.
 
thats y im sick of these ones answering for LMS or trying to back them up just let LMS answer the question people have on there post. ITS SERIOUSLY RIDICULOUS
 
bpd1151 said:
I'm sorry.....  I couldn't help but to interject a little humor into the equation, by posting some much requested....... DATA!

I think I remember all those facets of his :D
 
yowen said:
I fail to see any unfounded claims here, we are certainly left in the dark here as to how much horsepower can be reliably had with these new pistons and rods. This is a very young engine platform and we have to accept that sometimes we are dealing with unknowns.

The claim is that the rod failed due to the HP that was being run, and NOT just from a bad con rod. There are a bunch of stockers that have snapped con rods so far, and had them replaced via ford factory warranty. If LMS thinks the engine they tore down was due to HP and not a Ford problem, I would like to know why.
If this is an unknown, they shouldn't make the claim.

What I'm looking for is something to the effect of: "this was just one example, we've torn down 12 engines in the past year, all of which were over 450hp, and all of which failed due to a snapped con rod."

That would be empirical evidence substantiating their claim.
 
Livernois Motorsports said:
We rate our Ecoboost engines with our rod and piston upgrade to 750-800HP.
Thanks for the update!  Is that a "safe" power level (longterm) or is that a "track-only" power level (short bursts only)?  What do you foresee regarding needed changes to the transmission/powertrain to support?
 
SHOdded said:
Livernois Motorsports said:
We rate our Ecoboost engines with our rod and piston upgrade to 750-800HP.
Thanks for the update!  Is that a "safe" power level (longterm) or is that a "track-only" power level (short bursts only)?  What do you foresee regarding needed changes to the transmission/powertrain to support?

Hopefully transmission upgrades will be developed for both longitudinal and transaxle applications.
 
Tranny and PTU will be the next big needed component for longevity in the 3.5 tuned/modded for extremes of power possible.
 
Livernois Motorsports said:
We rate our Ecoboost engines with our rod and piston upgrade to 750-800HP.

From this it seems safe to assume rods and pistons are the weak link and the rest of the motor is bullet proof since my truck would explode into a pile of bolts at that HP.
 
With the Rod piston upgrade that would be safe power level.


The next area that will be the weak link will more than likely be the transmission. We have not seen any failures yet but like anything mechanical everything has its breaking point.

 
Livernois Motorsports said:
SHOdded said:
Livernois Motorsports said:
We rate our Ecoboost engines with our rod and piston upgrade to 750-800HP.
Thanks for the update!  Is that a "safe" power level (longterm) or is that a "track-only" power level (short bursts only)?  What do you foresee regarding needed changes to the transmission/powertrain to support?

With the Rod piston upgrade that would be safe power level.

The next area that will be the weak link will more than likely be the transmission. We have not seen any failures yet but like anything mechanical everything has its breaking point and once we come across this you can bet that we will be offering upgrades for the trans as well.

A proactive approach needs to be seriously considered by you on the trany issue and RDU as well .
I think as you are the only player that has the incentive and resourses available to beef up these WELL KNOWN  weak links it would be benifical to all .
 
Excellent insurance when pushing the limits. We see rod bolt stretch as a good ARP or similar is critical, same w/head studs as boost increases you want to maintain good clamping force and OEM bolts will stretch and allow head lift.  Rods would be the next weakest OEM link(and pistons...a toss up).

But even with the best internals, allowing water/unburnt fuel/carbon and soot as well as sulfuric acid to accumulate in the crankcase and contaminate the oil will still take out the best components. And the flawed PCV system of the EB guarantees some amount of this.

 
Tracy,
Thanks for weighing in on this!

In regards to the original post (quoted below) what have your findings been regarding engine failure, specifically referring to broken con rods, in EB engines? Are you finding a correlation to roughly 450WHP being somewhat of a potential breaking point as well?
TIA

Livernois Motorsports said:
The horsepower numbers listed are based on observations of failed engines that we've received at various different power levels. Based on the types of failures, along with the corresponding power levels these engines were at during the failures, we're able to draw up an estimate for the max power capabilities. Like any estimate it's an educated guess based on the data we have to work with. In this case seeing the modes of failure spread out across multiple engines gives a good indication of what the limits are.

Like anything though there are variables that affect these kinds of things, you can take a stock Big Block Chevy out of an old truck and add parts and Nitrous to it and make over 700hp, but how long realistically before it blow's up. I think the term "ticking time bomb" is probably most appropriate in that scenario.

So this isn't to say that as soon as a 3.5L ecoboost hits 450whp for the first time it's guaranteed instant kaboom. But we do know that once you get around that horsepower number that we see a lot of failures in stock engines, so that must be right around the limit before things start failing. Knowing this we try and make an effort to educate the customer so they understand the implications of power at these levels, and that an engine failure at higher power levels like these with a stock engine is entirely possible and in fact likely to occur.

It's important to keep in mind that when the OEM is designing the engine they are only trying to meet the performance criteria for that specific application, while at the same time keeping costs as low as possible. So adding extra strength to components to handle power levels that exceed the stock power output is almost never an option. It would add cost in most cases and is unnessary, because to the OEM, they have no reason to worry about the engine beyond the stock power output. They'll design it to handle exactly the power output in factory form, then add a small percentage for a safety factor. This is why it's easy to get away with a mild tune and bolt on's on almost any stock vehicle. But as soon as you push outside of the smaller power gains over stock, you'll most likely be pushing the engine to it's limits in stock form.

Attached are some photo's of some recent builds, as well as some shots of the machine and engine shop.

Thanks



- edited by 4DRHTRD to fix the title - was ernoise changed to Livernois
 
Not really. We see 500 plus and rods holding up. Similar to the GM 3.6L DI engine. Both are strong.  What we generally see as far as rod failure is when hydrolock occurs (have never in my career seen and engine experience it as often as the EB, and that is due to the PCV system flaw, not the engine design).  Several we have torn down for other reasons seemed to still run great, but we find a bent rod or two and that is not happening from power....it is when the piston cannot compress liquid ingested from upping the boost allowing the mix collected in the CAC to be pushed into the intake manifold. No rod even forged twice as strong can survive that. Something has to give, and rod or piston (or both).  The bent rod may last for the life of the engine, but the piston is now behind in timing and never reaches the top of the deck and the quench area will no longer be effective allowing heat build up beyond what the piston can survive with. Quench area is critical so you dont want a piston sitting low in the hole.  Empty and clean the CAC, correct the PCV system flaw and trap all of this mix before it can reach the combustion chamber and these motors seem to take 500 plus HP fine and live.  600 and your going to have failures period. May last a while, may not, but you will have reached all limits.

We sent Livernoise a complete Monster System to install and see first hand 2 months ago, but to date they haven't installed it so if we can get them to put aside the strange belief that this oil/water/fuel/sulfuric acid mix is NOT good for the engine, I think you will see them making much more trouble free power in the future. They do know how to make power and build strong engines no question.....just stuck on the PCV system and dont seem to want to even test in fear they will "see the light".

 
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