Livernois Motorsports 3.5 Ecoboost engine build with upgraded rods and pistons

[black99lightning]

Fact is, some members are skeptical of LMS...and some members are their proponents. So when a thread is posted involving them, there's bound to be some disagreements. No way around it. Loyal v. critic is on every site since ever. But the two sides have it out, and move on.

But The Great Divide exists, and it's name is LMS.

http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,3053.0.html

This is truly the problem.  From the outside looking in, I see a lot of distrust from a lot of members here about LMS.  If you so distrust them, boot them.  I have LMS tunes in both of my EB vehicles.  I have an unleashed tune in my Lightning.  Due to LMS not supporting the Xcal with a 3bar tune, that they sold me, I will be using Unleashed to tune my SHO.  Does this suck, sure.  I have to pay Torrie $199 for a tune, that I should get for free from LMS.  Do I feel the need to constantly bash and criticize them, no. 

To me this thread was news as it was telling of a new product for our vehicles.  I'll never use it, but someone might.  Rarerly does anyone look/post in the vendor sections, so to me putting a new release in news makes sense?

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

Fact is, some members are skeptical of LMS...and some members are their proponents. So when a thread is posted involving them, there's bound to be some disagreements. No way around it. Loyal v. critic is on every site since ever. But the two sides have it out, and move on.

But The Great Divide exists, and it's name is LMS.

http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,3053.0.html

This is truly the problem.  From the outside looking in, I see a lot of distrust from a lot of members here about LMS.  If you so distrust them, boot them.  I have LMS tunes in both of my EB vehicles.  I have an unleashed tune in my Lightning.  Due to LMS not supporting the Xcal with a 3bar tune, that they sold me, I will be using Unleashed to tune my SHO.  Does this suck, sure.  I have to pay Torrie $199 for a tune, that I should get for free from LMS.  Do I feel the need to constantly bash and criticize them, no. 

To me this thread was news as it was telling of a new product for our vehicles.  I'll never use it, but someone might.  Rarerly does anyone look/post in the vendor sections, so to me putting a new release in news makes sense?

Guys you may not believe it, but I disagreed with JimiJak about the reasons to move this thread. To me it was simply in the wrong place and we're trying to get the board cleaned up.

Perspective plays a huge role here and often we are 180 degrees out of sync, so I want to clarify my position here.

Any bias that I may or may not have had went out the window the second I took the job. I am here to serve Mike first and foremost, the vendors, and the members

Please remember there are a couple of us that are new at this. Are we going to make mistakes? Yup. Are we open to suggestions? Hell yes.

I think this was a good thread by Livernois, but I think my view of "news" may be different than others( Once again, that whole perspective thing). After re reading many times I think this one rides the line, but there is an easy solution and it's one that will benefit all of our vendors.

I think we should add a "product news" or "new product announcement " up at the top of the board. This will help keep the board clean and give all the vendors a front and center position to showcase their stuff. Any feedback or suggestions about this would be welcomed from vendors and members

As far as proving claims....In my mind this was in reference to tangible items, CAI's, exhaust, tunes, etc. Why? Isn't it also our jobs as mods to protect our members from "snake oil"? Hell, I have a $200 paperweight of a typhoon sitting in my garage that is pretty useless. Yup, I'm salty about it.

I have a lot of experience with FSWERKS/Focussport. Those guys always put up their dyno sheets from intakes to turbo kits, real ones, not like that crap certain companies like K&N post. If the vendors or members think this bar is too high, I'd like to know the reasoning about it. It protects our members, keeps honest people honest, and may keep certain bad elements away from the forum as they will know they will not be able to spew nonsense and muddy the waters for our current, trusted vendors.

As far as this "tuner war" bs, the reality is that one size does not fit all. There is plenty of room for Livernois, Unleashed, and hopefully some others will show up. The reality is we are all different...Livernois is a better fit for some, Unleashed for others. These matters should be settled in a friendly and productive way...at the strip or strapped to the dyno. Everyone needs to step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath just like I did last night when I saw this thread. I slept on it, thought about it, and here we are today.

Ultimately we are all here for the same purpose, wringing every ounce of safe performance from our beloved Ecoboosts...It's time we all start focusing on that and stop being so damn sensitive.

One final thought...I offer an open door policy...if there is anything anyone would like to chat about or discuss, my PM's are always open.

Sean

 

[boostedflex]

One thought I had on these hydrolock's, could it be issues with these users meth setups?  I know we had one user who hydrolocked his engine spraying at too low of an rpm.  I have been following these forums (this, ownersforum, fordflex.net, sho forum, etc) for years, and it seem like until two or three months ago we had no drivetrain failures, now we are getting all of these reports.  I don't know, just tossing it out their, something seems odd, especially since these are all transverse.

 

[ShoBoat]

One thought I had on these hydrolock's, could it be issues with these users meth setups?  I know we had one user who hydrolocked his engine spraying at too low of an rpm.  I have been following these forums (this, ownersforum, fordflex.net, sho forum, etc) for years, and it seem like until two or three months ago we had no drivetrain failures, now we are getting all of these reports.  I don't know, just tossing it out their, something seems odd, especially since these are all transverse.

It's possible that it was caused by a meth setup if it was malfunctioning or a bad install. There are several guys here who have been running meth here with great results. I know from my own car that I had some fluid in the CAC, if it's enough to cause a hydro lock and bang I'm not sure. Hey as much as I love LMS i am beginning to believe that there may be in fact some issue with fluid build up in the CAC. I would guess it depends on how you drive. Let me put it this way. If you have an EB and city drive the car all the time. Never having the opportunity to really give it the beans. Let assume you do this for like 5 or 6k miles. You then go and get on the expressway. And floor it to about 85, well all that crud that was sitting in your CAC is now in your intake and sucked down into the engine. I personally don't drive my car like that. I'm on it all the time. Reasonable logic would dictate that I am constantly burning whatever is caught in the CAC and it doesn't build up to the point of a massive gulp. It is possible that for me and others that drive like me or mixed driving this scenario is less likely to happen. But hydro lock is well documented on the F150, it's possible that the CAC design on the transverse EBs it's less likely to happen but not impossible. 


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[Tuner Boost]

Sorry I missed this for a few days all,

First off, let me make it clear...their is no area we compete against LMS, in fact we have been referring customers to them for ages, and still do.

The hydrolocks we are talking about are mainly in stock or mild bolt on trucks. Were in contact with several Ford dealers now (we are getting calles every week now from Canada to California) discussing HPDI pump failures, intake valve coking issues causing damage to hot side turbine blades, to the cleanside concentrate from the PCV system not evacuating properly (anyone can test this themselves....by the time you are at 1/4 throttle your making 0" vacuum and there is NO evacuation taking place,  so this concentrate of water, unburnt fuel, sulfuric acid, carbon & soot particles are for the most par, staying in the crankcase and contaminating the engine oil (oil analysis shows this) so when it is "burped" out in concentrate when the crankcase presuure builds (another area that is critical with upping boost and power as any crankcase pressure will add to the stress the rods and pistons experience) that begins to condense as soon as it hits the inlet tube so when it hits the cool side turbine damage can occur as well.

But the hydrolock comes from the liquid mix accumulating in the CAC pushed into the intake manifold during a sudden surge of boost, and it only takes app a shot glass of liquid in one single cylinder to cause damage or failure. And we are raising power in these engine by increasing boost. This can all be no debate by inspecting and draining the liquid from your own CAC and collecting it to measure and see.

Now keep in mind, there are millions of small displacement turbo engines in use around the world, and similar issues to the EB are rare, but we have yet to talk to a dealer service center directly that is not seeing this multiple times in stock EB's, more in the trucks than the transverse vehicles.  And we are doing training at several dealers on installation and understanding of the PCV system, the flaws, and the solutions.

So we are not building EB's for max power, only R&D work for the most part.  We do manufacture single and twin turbo systems, centrifugal supercharger, and top mount PD blowers for many DI V6 applications (adding the Mustang V6 and Challenger V6 soon to be released) so we stress the limits in many and thats all I am reporting.  I do examine failures and can usually diagnose accurately what happened, and caused the failure (many times several parts are broken when only one initially failed). I have done this for over 40 years in street, performance, and all out professional drag racing class engines so not much I have not seen.

So in closing, I have no fight w/ LMS and the only real thing I want is a public discussion with actual data on their belief that some how oil ingestion, intake valve coking, and improper crankcase evacuation is some how acceptable, much less tolerated in any application, and critically in a performance (forced induction) application.  I think that would go a long way in clearing some of the confusion many have on this.

 

[SHOdded]

OT:  What are your thoughts on boost add-ons for the 3.5L NA engine?  Maybe put that in a new topic if there's enough to talk about?

 

[PokerMunkee]

My head hurts trying to understand the 5+ pages in this thread.  Why don't people mention the tuners with the blown engines?  Everything should be open.  Which tuners are having the failures?

Should I be worried about tuning my soon to be 2013 SHO?  I'm going to go with Unleashed, just do a CAI and down pipes.  Nothing crazy.  Going with Torrie because of the custom tuning via datalogging, want to make sure everything is good at my high elevation.

 

[ShoBoat]

My head hurts trying to understand the 5+ pages in this thread.  Why don't people mention the tuners with the blown engines?  Everything should be open.  Which tuners are having the failures?

Should I be worried about tuning my soon to be 2013 SHO?  I'm going to go with Unleashed, just do a CAI and down pipes.  Nothing crazy.  Going with Torrie because of the custom tuning via datalogging, want to make sure everything is good at my high elevation.

You make an interesting point, it would be good to know who is blowing engines to be able to steer clear of them. But as mentioned the engine shops are getting their business so I doubt they will point fingers. It would be even better if we could get the owners of these cars/trucks on here posting their experiences.


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[explorergotoluvit]

So if a difference of opinion is encouraged just let me voice my concerns on the topic and you can do the same. Just don't try to reign in my opinions if they conflict with yours or others.

So when LMS put out a post and someone asks them a questions why would you have to put your opinion in? When you don't know the answer and your not LMS just let people ask questions and you stay out of there questions when there not directed to you and there wouldn't be bickering... Its becomes of this because you feel like people are bashing LMS when its just ask questions.

But yes I think the people that run this forum push the gun on certain things and what I have seen its toward LMS posts

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

All of the engines that have had failures that have been sent to us were from the Taurus SHO, not the F-150. We have not seen any failures from the F-150.

There is a crap load of F-150's vs SHO's on the road, so I find this pretty disturbing. The internals are basically the same correct? Powdered metal rods, cast pistons, forged crank?  And these engines were basically just fatigued, not the result of bad tune/detonation?

Were all of the cars tuned?

 

[SHOmanMike84]

All of the engines that have had failures that have been sent to us were from the Taurus SHO, not the F-150. We have not seen any failures from the F-150.

There is a crap load of F-150's vs SHO's on the road, so I find this pretty disturbing. The internals are basically the same correct? Powdered metal rods, cast pistons, forged crank?  And these engines were basically just fatigued, not the result of bad tune/detonation?

Were all of the cars tuned?

There are a ton of blown EB engines documented for the 150. A lot to do with the condensation build up in the IC. They have a poll over at f150forum.com

 

[Tuner Boost]

Correct on the trucks

 

[SHOnUup]

Can't wait to hear about the #'s on this!